[00:00:01] Speaker A: It's crucial that when I hear knowledge from children that there's an audience that that can be shared with and that usually that audience is a loving and caring audience that can build on this knowledge and feed this knowledge back and give other examples of this knowledge that might stretch into the history of the family and might fit with the values that parents want their children to be brought up by.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds podc.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Hi everyone, my name is Chris Dolman and today it's my pleasure to speak with Carolyn Markey.
Carolyn is a children and family counsellor in a specialised family violence team with Relationships Australia, South Australia.
Carolyn's practice experience includes working with children, young people, individuals, couples and families who are responding to a range of concerns, including children witnessing violence and its many unjust effects. And for many years she's also co facilitated groups for men wanting to address their use of violence, like in parallel to working with children affected by these actions. In this podcast episode we'll be focusing on one aspect of Carolyn's practice. Her work in gathering and documenting children's knowledge about how they've got through hard times, or knowledge about how they'd like their dads to treat them, and then sharing this with men and other children really with the intention of assisting healing.
So welcome to our podcast series. Carolyn, thanks very much for joining us.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Thanks, Chris.
[00:01:33] Speaker C: In your work with children, you describe how you adopt the view that the children who consult with you carry with them a whole range of knowledges that they draw on in their lives.
So can I begin by asking, like, when you speak of children's knowledge, what do you mean by that?
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Okay, so it might not seem like such a complex question, but. And I suppose it's pretty straightforward, but the point is that rarely is children's knowledges brought forward when we talk to children in a therapeutic context. You know, all kids know stuff. They learn things initially from caregivers, then the broader world, you know, the formal stuff in schools and so much more sadly in social media, obviously, and culture. But in my work, I'm really interested in the things that children have done that help them get through hard times.
Of course, children often don't see what they've done as knowledge, and parents might not see it as knowledge either. That's not a criticism, but that's a kind of result of, kind of cultural messages that we get about children in Western culture. Anyway, let me just jump to a small example.
[00:02:43] Speaker C: Yeah, sure, sure.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Okay. So a child might tell me who I first meet and they might not tell me this in the first session that when they heard mum and dad or parents that are caring for them screaming at each other, that they froze or they did nothing and they hid under the bed.
So, you know, we might be trained into thinking that this kind of behavior is fear and some sort of response of a nervous system. This is one idea, okay, that, you know, there's been plenty of literature that's been spoken, that's been written about that. You know, in our work as professional helpers, we're trained to think that the most helpful way for children to heal is to tell them to do certain things, to give them ideas, to give them tips to provide parents with healing advice that will help their children heal. This is incredibly important.
However, I think we can do more than that for those sorts of tips to be sustained.
So what I'm really interested to find out is how hiding under a bed might be a knowledge or a skill that in that moment helped. It's not just freezing, but it actually could be a skill. So kind of the first step is to spot the skill that the site of trauma might also be a side of resistance and skills and knowledges that isn't easy. It's sort of like training your listening for it, you know, and don't get me wrong, giving parents tips and strategies is enormously important. But I think when we're working with children, what often isn't kind of asked about, because we're not trained to ask it, is what children do in response to really hard and unjust things, you know, so this idea telling children what to do is a social or a kind of cultural construction, you know, it kind of positions children as, you know, I know most practitioners wouldn't think this, but it kind of positions us to fill them up with knowledge or to give them some tips. I mean, in some cultures, you know, I learnt when I was teaching in Central Australia that there's nations of indigenous people that believe that when a child is born, they're born all filled up, they have all the knowledge they need. So that really shakes the ground I stand on, you know, as a Western whitey, you know, and it really gives me pause to think about, well, what am I doing if all I'm offering is tips?
[00:05:08] Speaker C: What contribution has that made to your practice even to sort of have your ground shaken like that?
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Well, it really has me reviewing my position in culture and what I might have actually put on people that isn't culturally appropriate. You know, there's so much I don't know. You know, that's what it reminds me of, you know, and to take a step back and to be thinking that also. I suppose in my work that when people walk into the room, it's not a starting point, that they come with experience, history, they've tried so hard. I would imagine that many listeners who are consulting people who've experienced sort of trauma would be very familiar with response based approaches, you know, or listening for what people do in the face of injustice, listening for acts of resistance. And you may be familiar with the work of Michael White or Alan Wade. If you're not, I'd really recommend that you start doing some reading because it's revolutionised my practice. You know, I suppose what it's about is that we're always believing that when we meet with kids or anyone, in fact, that they're not just going to take the trauma. There's always some sort of response. Even if they feel they did nothing, there'll be some sort of thinking, there'll be some sort of action or thought that maybe this isn't fair. But very rarely do we hear that because we don't ask about it.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: And so that thought, even that this isn't fair, would you regard that as a type of knowledge?
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Absolutely right. So this is the starting point and it's a relief as a worker to feel that people have skills and knowledge. I don't have to be the one to fill them up. It makes the work joyful, it makes the work hopeful, it provides children with looks of astonishment when they realise that they've actually done something when initially they thought that they could do nothing or. And this doesn't mean that the violence stops or that there's happy ever after, but they've actually acted rather than just sort of being positioned as just the recipients of horrendous injustice.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah. So for children to sort of see what they've done, to sort of have it become more apparent to them that they've responded in some way, I guess is quite a different take on it for them than being told or conveyed to them that this is a, like a flight response that they've made.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And once again, I don't think it's unhelpful for, you know, the language of fight or flight, but it doesn't bring forward really specific, particular everyday experiences that might be going on in a child's mind or body that actually are helping them to get through something really hard.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: I see. So those terms can obscure that. It kind of just gets summarised by that rather than the particulars of how, what the child has done, the action They've taken.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: I mean, children have said to me, I froze. You know, I know I couldn't help it. And when I asked them, you know, this language of neurobiology, it's not unhelpful, but when I ask kids, oh, what do you mean by froze? They kind of look at me oddly, as if I'm the dumbest therapist in the world. But they don't really know, you know, well, I couldn't move. Okay, so while you weren't moving, did you think of anything? And then an answer will come which might seem to be a bit of a contradiction because they think nothing's happening, it could risk positioning them as passive.
So it's just, it's a huge addition to the work that really makes this work in such unjust places, a joyful place, because children start to remember things that they did and so different pathways in their minds are being created. It's not just what was done to them.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: Thanks, Carolyn. Like. Cause sometimes, I guess because of what they've been through, children, as you've indicated, may not regard themselves as being knowledgeable, as kind of knowing things. Right.
You know, they might have even come to think of themselves, see themselves as dumb, as damaged, as, you know, unable to make friends, as a loser, whatever. I think you've begun to speak about this, but what practices do you draw on in your work with children that positions them as knowledgeable? Is it those kind of questions or some other things you do? You know, like how do you convey this view to them?
[00:09:24] Speaker A: You know, children often don't even want to come to counselling because, you know, they feel that they're losers or they're not worthy of anything really sometimes. And you know, parents come in sometimes just guilt ridden, but full of hope and love for their child.
I suppose how they know, how I kind of. I don't convince them that it's knowledge. I think it's about the circulation of knowledge that we don't know in isolation of others and we don't gain knowledge in isolation.
Well, from a Westerner point of view.
So I think it's crucial that when I hear knowledge from children that there's an audience that that can be shared with and that usually that audience is a loving and caring audience that can build on this knowledge and feed this knowledge back and give other examples of this knowledge that might stretch into the history of the family and might fit with the values that parents want their children to be brought up by.
[00:10:26] Speaker C: So you said a couple of things there. What really kind of, in a way conveys this understanding of them as possessing knowledge of children's. Possessing knowledge is creating context for others, supportive other people in their lives to acknowledge this, to say something about. About this, how they've seen it in other times, other places in the young person's life, is that right? As well as like other histories in the family that this might be connected to?
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Yes, you know, so just to elaborate on this little one that told me that she did nothing, but she hid under the bed. And I said, oh, so how did you even think to hide under the bed? And she said to me, well, that's where I go when I play hide and seek, you know. And I said, well, who do you play that with? So this is the social collaboration with my sister.
So we've got an audience.
So what do you reckon your sister would have thought, have you remembering to hide under your bed? And they might say, I don't know, you know, so we have to ask again, you know, like, if your sister was watching you when that happened and she saw you, you know, running under the bed, would she think that that was a good idea or a bad idea or something else? So we're helping. We're not putting words in this child's mouth, but we're kind of scaffolding or we're helping them think of themselves through the eyes of others. This, you know, preferably loving members in that person's life. And sure enough, yes, yes, she thought it was good. And then the story continued with these sisters that I met with that this bed was her sister's bedroom. So she actually ran to her sister's room and hid under her sister's bed. And there was more audience. There was her. I think it was her toy rabbit. So, you know, we can ask about the toy rabbit. So what's the skill? The skill is, you know, what to do when scary things happen or something like that. You know, we might be thinking, I'm thinking about that in my mind.
How can I not just see this as escaping from violence, but a skill that she has drawn on history, you know, of fun times to hide under the bed. And so there's a different kind of set of events that are kind of coming together.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I really love that story you've just described and has me thinking there's even a couple of skills, a couple units of knowledge there, isn't there? What we've said? The knowledge about, you know, where to hide under the bed, actually, and also the remembering to do that as well. So this quite particular cultivation of children's knowledge can I ask you a bit more about the documentation side of these things, because I understand that is an important part of that.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. So not only are other people in children's lives, you know, vital audiences or toys or pets, but actually their words, you know, their words being translated into the written word so that it can be read and through reading, it even kind of new meaning can be made or extended meaning can be made. So.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: So could I ask, like, how do you go about documenting that? Like, what's. What's going on in the room when this is happening?
[00:13:30] Speaker A: All right, so maybe a more recent example would be meeting with a young person who's now about 12, and she was in a situation where she had heard and seen her dad's violence towards her mother. And she now lives, you know, with her dad for a few days a week and with her mum, due to family court orders, which is not unusual, she lives actually with her mum for five days and her dad too.
And when she. When I first met with her, the main problems were the. This sense of pressure that she was getting from dad to stay with him more and the kinds of questions that she was up against. And, you know, don't get me wrong, I'm not. I would never position.
It's not in children's interest to position one parent having the good way and one parent having the bad way. These people are going to be in this child's life forever. I'm going to be in their life for five, six hours. So maybe her dad makes it known to her that he wants her to stay more because he misses her.
You know, she's a good big sister to her stepbrother, she helps around the house, but she just sees this as pressure and blackmail, actually, you know, So I think about when she says this is pressure. She knows something. She knows what it's like to not have pressure in a relationship, to understand the concept of pressure. She's probably had a time with dad when there wasn't so pressure, not so much pressure to name it as blackmail. She kind of knows when there's not another agenda, when her parents are asking or something, you know, so I'm thinking about that as I hear this. So this the side of a problem is the side of skills and knowledge. So I said to her, what do you do, you know, when dad gives you that sad look, so asking for action or asks you why won't you stay longer? And she said to me, I don't know, I just ignore him. So what's the action? Ignoring him. So that would be you know, earlier in my practice, I would have just missed that. I wouldn't have even asked anything about it. I would have thought, oh, yeah, well, that's the natural thing to do, just ignore it.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: You know, now you're seeing it as an action.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: I see it as an action, yeah.
And I said, what do you exactly mean, ignore it? And she said, well, you know, like, I might not have dinner at the table or I might even eat in my room, because that's where he usually asks me this stuff. And so I said to her, okay, so there's some more actions there. I'm not sure if this is helpful action or not. So I ask her, you know, what effect does it have, you know, not eating at the dinner table or eating in your room, but this ignoring your dad?
She said, well, dad doesn't like it, but it stops the arguments.
Okay? So there's a bit more meaning. Okay, so you go into your room to stop the arguments. Does it work?
And she said, yeah, Dad's calmer. What else might that do? It kind of keeps the peace.
Okay?
So I'm thinking, I bet dad doesn't think that's why she goes into a room, you know, and wouldn't that be important for dad to know that her intentions are not just to be, you know, like a bloody teenager that's going into their room and doesn't want to be with their, you know, the family and have a good conversation. So. But this is also a skill and a knowledge to keep the peace. Okay? And my guess is that keeping the peace, there's a history of this value in the family that goes back a while. She hasn't made this up. So rather than me giving her suggestions what sustains change is if there's a history, you know, of a value that the family's already been using, you know, and we're just tweaking it a little bit, or we're just kind of seeing it as a skill and a knowledge and continuing it, but in it has more space to exist. Yeah. So I said to her, so, okay, so taking your dinner into your room, kind of staying silent.
I don't know. I'm quite influential, I might say. These kind of sound like skills that you're using to keep the peace or to not have arguments. And I said, would your dad know that? And she said, no, no, he just thinks I'm going into my cave, I think. Yeah. And I said, this might have been a bit early, but I said, I wondered, you know, I wonder if your dad should know this. And she sort of stopped and I thought, no, that's too soon.
So then I think, I wonder if other kids should know about this that are in a similar situation to her and she jumped on it. You know, I'm quite overt in letting other children know that or proving, you know, that some of the issues that I talk with other children about are the ones they're talking to me about too. And I don't just say, oh yeah, I talk to lots of kids about that. I have documents from other children that have told me how they've got through hard times, like how they've got through worries or what to say to dad when he puts pressure on or advice to divorced parents. You know, they read these documents before I even start talking and it's sort of like, oh, you know.
[00:18:22] Speaker C: So she jumped at this with some enthusiasm, this idea.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:25] Speaker C: And where did you go from there?
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Well, I just said, I don't know.
You know, I usually use. This might seem a bit weird, but I just wondered if you don't have to put your name on it, but what would it be like if there was another.
And you know, I'm not kidding, there is another person I'm working with that's about your age that also experiences a bit of pressure from their dad because he wants them to stay longer. You know, I wondered what it would be like if when they came next time that they had some ideas from you. I know it would make my job much easier, but I wondered if we could write that together. Very rarely do kids say, no, no, I don't want to help anyone else.
[00:19:04] Speaker C: You know, how come you think she and others jump at this with enthusiasm?
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Well, wasn't as kind of confronting as telling a father to start, but it was also out of an ethic of care, you know, that she wanted to help, you know, and also that there were other children in the same boat as her and that, you know, maybe there was someone worse than her. I think she said that, you know, you could see just in her how she was like, well, let's get going. What do we do? You know, and so the paper's there and I've already written down some of her words. And I said, okay, so if this was a list of things that you. Or Instructions for another 12 year old, you know, what would you say or what would this list be called? So that's how we'd start it.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: And so the sort of the. You'd previously been writing down her words, you know, capturing something of her knowledge. But then at this Point it becomes much more intentional as a document to share with other others. Is that right?
[00:20:00] Speaker A: So, you know, am I, as we're writing this list?
Oh, well, I know I said to her, what do you reckon your mum might say that you do to keep the pressure off? Or what might your best friend? You know, I might have already found out about other people in her life that are important to her.
So I'm asking, rather than me praising her or saying that's a great idea or terrific, I ask her to evaluate what she's writing through the eyes of people that she loves. And she's going to be knowing for a lot longer than she's gonna be knowing me. And this is what makes it sustaining to have an audience that is sustaining, not just a counsellor that will be there for seven sessions.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: And again, this conveys that positioning and as knowledge, I guess, as you were saying before through those inquiries.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So she now has in her mind, you know, we might be asking, what difference does it make to kind of have read, you know, the things that you do? And she said, you know, I know she said, you know, we've got about five things on the list. And said, oh, I didn't realize. I did so.
And I'm very careful not to set it up as, you know, the truth of what she has to do every time or every time she does it, that it works, you know, because sometimes her dad might be cross at her because she goes into a room, but just presenting it as something that she's done, she's no longer passive.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: And it's not just generating a list of things, though, is it? Like there's whole other stories connected to each of those things that you're uncovering, I guess, in the conversation.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: So you're uncovering precious values.
You know, I go into my room to keep the peace. It's not just going to your room. It's what's the intention behind that action? I keep silent because I don't want to start an argument or dad will argue with me. You know, I put my headphones on when I'm in the room so I can't hear my parents arguing. I mean, I'm sure many practitioners have heard that response. And, you know, we can ask why they do that and what's that about, you know. Cause I love listening to this band, whatever. What is it about music that helps when, you know, your parents don't think that you're listening in, but you're kind of tuning out. Why does that help?
Because it takes me to another Place. Yeah.
[00:22:12] Speaker C: So, Carolyn, I'm understanding that sometimes these documents are created with the intention of, you know, sharing it with others. And sometimes that intention comes about, you know, once you've got into the conversation, you know, once the document and once the document's been completed.
So how do you invite children into the idea that what they share could be of benefit to others and it's not breaking confidentiality?
[00:22:34] Speaker A: Well, most documents are anonymous or, you know, I've had some hilarious conversations where children decide on a chosen name.
[00:22:42] Speaker C: Okay, I was wondering if we could now turn our attention to your work with men who are fathers. And, like, what are some of your broad intentions in sharing documents of children's knowledge with them?
[00:22:56] Speaker A: The fathers that I meet with who have perpetrated violence or acted in ways that actually might transgress values that they hold, you know, when they also know that their children have been a witness to that violence or might have heard it, in my experience, often hold a wounding shame because this is not usually what they've intended for their kids. For some men, it can have them turning their back on that what they've done has affected their kids. So I might hear, well, the kids were at the other end of the house. You know, we were really careful to argue. You know, they saw it, but they kind of seem fine.
[00:23:39] Speaker C: We've spoken a bit about how shame can have men turning away from taking a closer look, having a closer understanding of the effects of what they've done on children.
So does something about sharing the documents of other children with men help counter that in some way or respond to that?
[00:23:57] Speaker A: So I always tell them that I work with children. Often it's not their children. And would they be interested to hear, you know, would they be interested an invitation to hear some ideas from kids, you know, rather than just me lecturing, you know, and if they're sort of saying yes, I then might offer a list or a document that is particularly relevant to that situation, if I've got one. And I might speak at first. So, for example, I might say, oh, well, in the work I do with kids, I might just get them to start to tell me about stuff they're enjoying, you know, like what to do in the holidays so you don't get bored. And, you know, I make all these lists that kids add to, but I also make lists from kids about knowledge that how they might like dads to be when hard things have happened, you know, and they might share it first with other kids. And then sometimes I'm able to share it with dads. Is that something you might be interested in? And when I read it, like, I'm going to read out what some children told me about, you know, you've said, for example, that, you know, you never see Jake and he's with his mum all the time and, you know, maybe she's poisoned his mind against you. And you ask him, you've even asked him, why doesn't he love you? And you just get nothing back from him. You just get this stonewall face, you know, and I've got this happen to have this, you know, document about from another child that says what the silence says. So then I might share that and I might even say, kind of, I might talk about the talking, which is, I think, a lovely skill that I've learned from Alan Jenkins. And that's, you know, as you listen to this, like, I don't want you to see it as the truth, or this is what you have to do, but just maybe listen, you know, can you just listen to what sort of sounds familiar, you know, and if you notice that, oh, I don't know, it's just too hard to hear, like, what would you do to keep listening? And that might be all I say. And I think those sorts of phrases have really helped men to really take what other children are suggesting to heart. And if this child, who's taken the time to write this stuff, had a message back to them from you, what would you say?
[00:26:15] Speaker C: You ask them potentially to send a message back.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah, and I've done that in a group setting and in, you know, individual settings. And, you know, it might just be a verbal, you know, God, how did that kid know that, you know, or, yeah, that was great. And then it's my, you know, it's my job to be able to, you know, feed that information back to that child, because that's about letting a child know that what they've shared is not for nothing. And it might have made a difference in another dad's life, which means it makes a difference in women and children's lives.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: So when you share children's knowledge via the document to the man, as you've just described, they take that in. How does that support your work with them?
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Well, I think it has them then thinking about, you know, their own context and what their children might. All the thinking that their kids might be doing or the things that they didn't even know about.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: So they're questions, you ask them, like, what stood out to you about what I've just said? What.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: What might it remind you of? You know, maybe in your own life as a kid, you know, what do you reckon it took for this child to write this down? You know, why do you think they think it's important that dads know about this? Why is it important for them?
These are very significant questions that are often never asked. And I think it was, you know, when I just asked what stood out, this dad said, oh, you know, there was a document that was from children about, please don't talk over us, please don't talk over us.
Just listen without saying anything or maybe just go, aha.
And he was listening to this from another child and it just. It reminded him of that absence when he was a kid. And that's not to denigrate his father, but, you know, his dad just did things without explanation and it really, as he said, it traumatised him and he didn't want to repeat that. So he thought it was pretty amazing that kids knew that what was helpful was just to listen to kids, not to talk over them or whatever.
[00:28:17] Speaker C: Are there ways you also seek to kind of understand the implications for the man of hearing these things, like what difference it makes to him in some way?
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Well, that's the nub of it, isn't it? We're kind of hoping that this might shape men to act more in accordance with values that they have, you know, so wanting to be able to talk to their kids freely and if they realise that, you know, asking their child, why don't you love me?
Is not helping their child to talk freely, or telling their child that their mum is brainwashing them, you know, that's a pretty obvious one. But there are more subtle things, you know, these realizations come of, oh, you know, okay, how could I say that differently? Or how can I just shut my mouth? Or how do I know when my kids are starting to kind of trust me again? I remember a very poignant telling from a grandfather in a men's group who said to us something like, you know, I know my grandkids are kind of starting, maybe starting to feel a little bit okay with me because they're getting cheeky again. And I think. And we said, well, what do you mean? He said, oh, well, because they would, you know. And he was. He had sort of tears in his eyes and he said, because they were scared of me. And then of course, to ask him, well, what does that have him wanting to do more of or less of?
So very poignant stories that are always complex.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: I'm wondering, so what sort of happens to all these documents you collect? I see you've got a few there in front of you.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Well, I mean, sometimes I stick them up on the wall before a session starts so that they're kind of on display. So I'm madly scrambling for ones that I think might be more relevant than others. And, you know, they usually get laminated so they don't get ripped or torn. They're usually scanned so the child can have a copy. And I keep a copy. Yeah. So because I'm in different counselling rooms with different kids, I can't just keep them in one room. But I think also, I know in previous places I've worked in some of these documents. My hope would be, you know, is that some of these documents can also be displayed in a waiting room, you know, like hopes for children. So. And in a previous workplace, we had this, and you'd sometimes see people sitting there waiting for their appointment and they're taking photos of the documents, you know, So I think that that's probably a good thing and that they're hopeful documents.
[00:30:52] Speaker C: Are there sort of particular challenges or other considerations that seem important to mention, you know, at this point, to put.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: I think, hopefully the themes come through is that it's not about telling, you know, when, for example, when I'm sharing a document from a child to a dad, it's not about not doing it too early. You know, don't do it in the first session, because I don't think it will be greeted with the openness, because shame will be there. And it would be a bit like, well, you've done this and the kids know this and don't do it. So how we scaffold and introduce these documents is really important.
[00:31:26] Speaker C: Do you have any further, I guess, words of encouragement for practitioners listening in, you know, who might be kind of interested in incorporating this into their work, you know, whose interest you've piqued around this.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: I think it's just a really joyful practice. I think that's what is so important in this really hard work that we can do. You know, to listen for resistance and responses can be a joyful and important endeavour. And I think it's joyful for parents to see that happening and for kids because, you know, Western culture can really train us into thinking it's just about solving the problem and helping, whereas this is a real antidote to that. And, you know, when we share it in teams, it makes the work lighter and more exciting.
[00:32:14] Speaker C: Carolyn, it's really been lovely to be hearing about this particular aspect of your practice. I know there's so much more we could be talking about. Yeah. So thank you so much for your generosity in sharing the ideas underpinning this and some really evocative examples as well.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Thanks, Chris.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Visit our
[email protected] to access a range of resources to assist you. Your practice brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health and Aged Care under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.
