Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: More hidden racism that people from a cold background might experience. It could not be as obvious like it could be a way of looking at a person. It could be making some commentary that even might come across as a complimentary. But the other side of it, it could be quite adverse. And it comes from a racist place, leaving children and families questioning who they are and what that means to them.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: Hi everyone. My name's Amanda Kemperman. Welcome to part one of this two part emerging Minds podcast series on culturally responsive practice. In today's podcast, parents and practitioners share their thoughts and ideas on responding to racism and correcting practitioner cultural mistakes when they're working with families with a culture that's different to their own. We'd like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, people of the Adelaide Plains we also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present, and emerging from the different First nations across Australia. As a part of our work at emerging Minds, we're privileged to partner with a range of leaders who support the mental health of children and families in Australia through developing our recent online course, culturally responsive practice strategies for children's mental health. Parents and practitioners shared their thoughts with me throughout both of these podcasts. You'll be hearing from emerging minds family partners Wei Gao and Renee Romeo and counsellor Eti Garibelli and family therapist Shko Mardin. Wei and Renee are parents and emerging minds lived experience family partners, and they'll share with us their experiences of racism and cultural assumptions and judgments. Practitioners Etienne Scho will talk about how practitioners can respond to children and families experiences of racism, and how practitioners can correct cultural mistakes they may make. We'll start by hearing from Wai, who will share her experiences as a parent, followed by Schkos. Practitioner observations I have to admit, racism definitely exists.
[00:02:22] Speaker D: Unfortunately, it happens pretty often and did happen on both me and my children. Really, I don't want any of these things happen to anyone. But I feel it's a good opportunity for us to talk about it, to let more people hear about it so we can do something about it.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: There are the hidden racism that people from a cold background might experience. It could not be as obvious like it could be a way of looking at a person. It could be making some commentary that even might come across as a complementary. But the other side of it, it could be quite adverse and having kind of a and it comes from a racist place. Even though the person who perpetrating that might not be aware that where is it coming from? But the effect is still there where, you know, leaving children and families questioning their own, who they are and what that mean to them in terms of the negative effect that would have on them. So that's the. The other type of racism where it's harder to detect and work with when it's not that obvious.
[00:03:32] Speaker E: A lot of times I think the focus is on the behavior and, you know, how can I help my child? How can I make them go to school? How can I make them improve their grades? What can be happening to your child? When did you notice that change in behavior? Did anything happen around it? Not just within the family context, within the school context? Can we look at a bigger picture what's happening in the world? Because a lot of the times, kids, they have access to social media. So there might be things that are not happening directly here, but they might see that are happening to people who are from their community, same color scheme, that they look similar to them, that they might be suffering something in another part of the world and they might think, oh, this might happen to me, and then just create that fear, even if it's not happening directly, or it might have happened to a friend of them. So you might have a child who's really having a lot of conflict, and they're being called, like the parents are being called at school and saying, you know, your child has been hitting your child is becoming part of a gang. How do we understand that? Also from a cultural context, sometimes if the person, if the child is understanding that they are feeling that they don't belong in that place, then their safe space might be coming together with people from their own community, from their own group. But then there might be other groups that are doing the same. And then that's when you start, there might be conflict between these children and these other children. It's not to say that they're trying to, you know, it's not about them violence or about creating this unsafe environment at school is also about the trauma that they might have endured before coming here, but also the trauma that they're coming, that it's a product of migration and living in a different cultural context and seeing your parents struggle.
[00:05:26] Speaker C: Renee now talks about her experiences of racism, including the microforms and how they accumulate whilst managing this.
[00:05:34] Speaker F: As a parent, I went through these experiences. I was very confused about my identity growing up. I was also embarrassed and ashamed. And some of that came from outsiders. And there's always outsiders that make sense of who we are, no matter what it could be gender, you know, sexuality, anything. When I would fill in a form and they might see a different ethnic name, a name that in their eyes is different to them, but in my world, it's just our beautiful names. And so there were those experiences that just continuously reminded me that this is the othering that we're experiencing. So having my son is an extra layer to the issues that I went through as a child, that my parents went through growing up, that my grandparents went through. And their stories aren't necessarily my stories, but they're stories that I was raised with in my childhood. So you're actually carrying stories and meanings and you're aware of how other people might see you. When we look at the impact of racism in a family, that when you have maybe three generations, they start to understand the impact that has, or the byproduct that that has years later. So if that first generation had experiences that kept them socially isolated or kept them within their community or prevented them from, you know, certain employment pathways or education pathways, that then is a byproduct that flows on into the next generation and then their children, which is me now. So third generation can look back and see those pathways. It then means I'm carrying a lot, a lot more, I'm carrying layers. And so then when a practitioner will meet me and I'll be like, that's it, we're done. They might be thinking, what's happened? And I'm talking of an accumulation of experiences.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: Councillor Ettie spoke about how these conversations arise and notices how it underpins some children's behaviour. Parent Renee then shares how naming racism can help to address it.
[00:07:57] Speaker E: Sometimes the parents are able to name it and to tell you the experience of what the child has gone through. Other times it's most about something that is happening for them at school or at home, like especially around behavior or performance at school.
And then there is more exploration about what might be happening for the child.
And other times it's like the person might be talking about it, but it doesn't look like they identify it as racism.
[00:08:29] Speaker F: And not using that language and not being able to say what it is continues. That invisibilisation of racism to go on undetected, not monitored and allowed to continue. And it can be in really subtle forms that allows it to just sort of continue.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: Practitioner Schko explains how he creates a space for children and families to share the descriptions and names for their experiences.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: In the context of a family or a child coming to therapy. And they might have experienced racism. Nonetheless, there is no name yet, so it hasn't been named. So a child might be confused, hurt, but confused as what does that mean then? The responsibility and the duty is on the therapist to create a space to give a language to name that experience. What does that mean for the child? And that might kind of require, if the action of the racism and the effect of it is embedded in the encounter they had. Nonetheless, there is no naming for it. So how are the therapists? We work with a family, with a child to name that experience, to give that experience a name, so we could collaboratively explore the effect on the child and on the family, creating the context where the language would become more accessible to them to name it. And that might be through a lot of questioning, starting with the very simple questions as we talked about the, you know, how did that feel? You know, what was it? Tell me that. Was it okay with you? Was it not okay with you? What did you not say about yourself? You know, if you could describe that feeling, how that feeling might be, what would that feeling represent to you? So the aim is to get to that, working together to get to that language so they would be able to name it, rather than us naming the racism for them. So we have as a therapist this obligation to facilitate and create a context for them to be able to name it.
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Parent Renee also shares how parents can actively support their children if the practitioner invites them into the conversation, to be.
[00:10:52] Speaker F: Involved, to say, this is the impact of this experience or this event, to be able to say, this is what it means in our family and this is what it means for our child, and so that they understand how we feel and also what we want to happen in those instances, because we are in a position where we can actually do a fair bit of work. We have knowledge, and I think practitioners need to recognise that, that it can also sit with a family to do some of that work.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: As a part of many conversations I've had, families have told me how the accumulative effect of microaggressions and racism can have them not speaking up. And with the significant power imbalance, there are some really helpful and proactive responses practitioners can take. Here's what parent Renee and practitioner Ettie.
[00:11:49] Speaker F: Had to say for practitioners to take that responsibility, engage with us, talk with us about it, but also to do the work as well, and to say, we're going to follow up on this, not just once time and fix things, but ongoing work, wherever it might be, so that we know we had this experience. Hopefully other families do not have this.
[00:12:13] Speaker E: Experience that we've had, understanding the family that you're working with, what has been the experiences of the parents? Are they feeling that they're not welcome here? And then is there any fear for them every time they send their child to the big world out there, that they are also going to be experiencing what they are experiencing as adults? And how do we work to support the parent within their own experiences so that they can then provide that support to the child without letting what's happening to them affect what's happening to the child as well?
[00:12:47] Speaker F: There's work, important work for us to do to counteract those narratives, those hurtful words, those experiences, and form our healing and our resilience, to then say, well, this is also who I am. And nothing can shake that. And so there's work to be done in that space too, that says who we are, who we think we are, who I am. And it doesn't matter what you say, because I know who I am. And so there's those narratives that we have to work through with children. We have to do that at a young age to help them formulate, cultivate, craft, who they are.
[00:13:38] Speaker C: I talked with Schko about how he might invite families to question racist ideas they encounter. He shares how he works to locate them in the context of dominant cultural ideas and practices, exposing power dynamics, aiming to shift blame away from the family. He's also talking about how he invites families to take a position on the ideas in relation to what's fair and just.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: I feel very comfortable to be talking about that.
The dominant culture, cultural ideas and then practices in my conversation with people that I work with and it's normally tied to with where an idea come from. Is it, you know, what's its origin?
Who is it serving? Is it serving the minority? Or is it serving the majority? Is it a just idea? Is it a just practice?
Is it a fair practice? Or is it not? Who would be disadvantaged from that particular idea and practices? So that kind of. And it's a conversation that tied with what is fair and what's just.
But it's also about paying attention to the imbalance that exists between the dominant culture and the subjugated culture. It might be helpful for a few reasons. The first reason that comes to my mind is it helps people to navigate to know what is the dominant culture and how their ways of thinking and ways of being shaped and reshaped by those ideas.
And the second, to know where they are standing in terms of those ideas and practices. Are they okay with it? Are they not okay with it reason is to see whether that. Is it fair and is it just on the rest of the. Particularly the minority groups where they. That sort of experience they are experiencing that sort of events that they are experiencing because of the cultural domination.
Is it okay or is it not okay by them to have a stand on that as well?
[00:15:54] Speaker C: Renee spoke with me about her commitment to racial justice and how she stands up for what's fair, in particular reference to her family.
[00:16:03] Speaker F: My decolonising parenting is that I do that work as a parent. I want to do that as someone that cares about community and about racial justice, and because I know those experiences that my grandparents had and my parents had, and it's different times, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing as much as I could to take my son on that journey to be able to see what racism is. No one helped my dad when he went through racism. Now I'm gonna say something. So there's this intergenerational element which will come as the generations move on, right? Is that you look back and you go, you know what? That I now have the words for that. I won't get fired for saying that that was racist, or I'm gonna speak up. There's things in place for me, you know, I mean, people still get fired for the wrong reasons if they speak up for being racist. So for our children, this isn't just talking about what racism is. This is also about making sure that there's representation of people in all walks of life and in all professions that look like us, that look like our children, that look like our partners, that look like our parents. And so if we have a diverse workforce of practitioners, then when you're walking into a service, you can see it already. Someone that might look like me, someone that has a name similar to mine, someone that speaks a second language. And so there's already this visibility of people that might look like us within a service or a practitioner to choose from, and also things like, it would depend. But for even things like if you went to a waiting room and they had books, you know, do those books reflect your client group? Do the posters on the wall reflect your client group? Sometimes they're a little bit token if it's just within the flyers and the brochures and posters and signage, but nothing within the service. And is the service right through to their leadership diverse in representation? Or is it just face to face, that frontline practitioner? So these are the other things I look for, is not necessarily, can they name it? Can they label it? Are they aware of it. But what does their service look like and what do their practitioners like? I said, what backgrounds they come from? Not necessarily that.
[00:18:44] Speaker C: I'm screening everyone now, taking a different focus. We also talked about when we made mistakes in practice and how mistakes are inevitable, especially when we're communicating cross culturally. Let's now hear from Ettie and Shko about making missteps and noticing them.
[00:19:02] Speaker E: You cannot not make a mistake. That's one thing that's really important. A lot of the time people are afraid of making that mistake and of coming off as racist. And that's one of the things that actually makes them racist, is walking around there without. Because it's like they're seeing you as you're different, too different when we're both humans. So, yes, be conscious of having that cultural awareness, but don't be so scared that you make it obvious and you make the person feel like, why are you so scared of me? Like, you know, I'm not different from you.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: I immediately know that what I have said. I position myself as an expert and my way of approaching life as an ideal way, and therefore her way is not the ideal, her way is not the. So it's a. It's kind of demonstrate the powers. If I do it, then you should be doing it as well then. And that's where it's kind of highlight the dichotomy and the binary that I think. And because I am in that position and I am thinking about it in this way, then I am thinking in a right way. And I don't even need to say that your way is a wrong way, because I already established that I am in a position of power. I am the expert and I know the right way. So you are. The wrong way is already implicit there. So then this is a dangerous phase.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: Parent Renee offers insight into what she calls racial fatigue that parents can experience.
[00:20:48] Speaker F: If you're mindful that that family or that parent and that child has an accumulation of these experiences in different services, that they get very tired and fatigued. It's racial fatigue or, you know, just constantly having to go, here we go again. I'm gonna have to tell you who I am. I'm gonna have to remind you how you gotta keep me culturally safe.
[00:21:11] Speaker C: Renee also shares her thoughts on when a practitioner has made a mistake and why apologising is important to her.
[00:21:18] Speaker F: This recognises the practitioner's ability to be reflexive in their practice, their ability to see things from a different perspective, and to recognise that they can make mistakes and we can all make mistakes and to be humble and acknowledge that there's been a mistake. This is about reconciling and restoring things. So it tells me that a practitioner is comfortable apologising, is comfortable learning from mistakes, and is, you know, yeah, can show professionalism to reflect and think about their practice.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: Shko shares what's important to him when recovering from a misstep.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: So one thing that I'm quite aware of in my conversation, and especially if I have stepped into a territory where I made mistakes, I need to be extra mindful that my apologies is sincere in a way that is not followed by a but or a however. So this is one way to make the apology sincere and not end up in the justification. Because whenever there is a justification, it diminishes the meaning of an apology.
[00:22:45] Speaker C: Parent Renee is now talking about providing an opportunity for families to respond to the apology and how the repair work is ongoing, allowing families to respond to.
[00:22:56] Speaker F: The apology or the repair, because often it's, you know, so sorry about that. Moving on. But, you know, allowing us to respond and say what we would like to say and recognising that. Not everyone feels comfortable responding either. Like there's a power imbalance, you're hoping that they'll still treat you the same way and that your, your child will still be able to access the service the same way. So there's power dynamics are still operating. So, yeah, making sure that that repair work is ongoing, you can see that that's. They're reflecting. You want to feel safe, culturally safe, and also an option for you to say, you know, if you would like to see someone else, there are times when that's appropriate to. Or just having space for that, for us to make decisions.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Parents Wei and Renee went on to talk about how practitioners being open and seeking to learn and understand can be a helpful approach to minimise asserting cultural norms, ideas and practices on people they meet with.
[00:24:08] Speaker D: So I feel we all come from different cultural backgrounds and even with practice, same culture, there are different ways for us to practice. So I feel being curious and humble. It's really important to be able to learn this specific way of practice, of this specific family and person.
[00:24:27] Speaker F: The curiosity has to be in a way that doesn't position us as exotic. And I use that term because we have been told that us and our child's very bit exotic, so we would tend to get, oh, I've been to this place and do you eat this food? And. Or they might say hello in certain language and it's neither of our languages. Yeah, does that curiosity go both ways, or is it just a one way?
I see certain parts of you, and sometimes you can tell their curiosity through their questions. They're trying to work out your cultural background or your religion or your heritage or something, and it's not necessarily needed. And so it's about maybe holding back on that curiosity and maybe we'll share that when we get to know you.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Councillor Ettie shared with me how she sees her role and how this helps in sharing power with people she meets with.
[00:25:31] Speaker E: That might be the first time that they're actually accessing a service. So they might have a lot of questions and they might not even understand why they're there sitting in front of us. And it's only by us getting to know them and seeing them as humans who, you know, right now I'm here supporting you, but in another context, you might be supporting me. So you know, there is no superiority in here.
[00:25:57] Speaker C: I'll leave you with a final word from emerging Minds family partner Wei if.
[00:26:03] Speaker D: The practitioner being humble and curious, asking more questions, I feel it will lead to a very good resolution. And please remember one thing. I know it takes a lot for a practitioner to say this, and I feel that's courageous. Meanwhile, for a person to speak up, it takes a lot as well. I think we should give credit to the people who can speak up because it ticks a lot and they need a lot of courage.
[00:26:32] Speaker C: Thank you for tuning into this podcast, where wei, Renee, Ettie and Shko shared their insights on addressing racism and cultural missteps and practice. Don't miss out on the second part of our series, navigating intergenerational family cultural tensions. For more resources on culturally responsive practice, you can enrol in the free online course culturally responsive practice strategies for children's mental health, available on the emerging minds learning platform. Thanks for listening and all the best in your culturally responsive practice journey.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com dot au to access a range of resources to assist your practice brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health led by Emerging Minds, the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.
