[00:00:00] Speaker A: We can build the kids trust in themselves by showing them what they're already doing to self regulate a lot of the time. And once they have that idea of like, oh, I already know what's going on in my body a little bit and I'm already taking action, now we can get more specific about the actions that we might be able to take.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds Podcast.
Hi everyone, my name is Jacqui Lee and this is the second episode in a two part series on supporting the mental health of autistic and ADHDER children. If you haven't listened to part one yet, you can find the link in our show notes. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains and the Gadigal people of the EORA Nation, and pay my respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging. This always was and always will be Aboriginal land. In our last episode we looked at how a neurodivergent, affirming approach to practice benefits the mental health of autistic and ADHDER children. This episode builds on these understandings by looking at how you can apply a neuroaffirming lens to your work with children and their families. We'll explore ways to build children's self regulation and advocacy skills, foster acceptance of their neurodivergent identity and uncover the why behind their behavior. Once again, I'm joined by psychologists Jason Tran and Esther Fiddick, speech therapist Kate Mulherin and Tammy Sinclair and Jasmine Deakin from Sunny Spectrum Supports, along with Bec and Jason, two of our Emerging Minds, family partners and parents of neurodivergent children. A neuroaffirming approach views behavior as a form of communication. Often behaviours that are considered problematic are simply the child's way of trying to communicate or meet their needs. I asked Kate and Jasmine how they work with families to uncover and understand the why behind a child's behaviour.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: I think what can be really lovely for them is to reconcile their experiences. So if you find someone who you're working on something academic and they're really avoidant about academics and being able to give them that like relief of having a logical feeling of of course being asked to do schoolwork stresses you out. How many years have you been asked to do schoolwork without anyone knowing how hard you are working? So of course it stresses you out and I want to do it in a way that doesn't stress you out. And it is teaching them that they are right and logical for avoiding their schoolwork because they're probably thinking that it's a bad thing to avoid schoolwork. But you can go, no, it actually makes a lot of sense for you. Having said that, we're not going to be stuck here forever. Like I have one student who talks a lot about being shy because they're autistic and then being able to gently challenge, like is it just the autism or have there been people's responses to you that have made you talk less? Because it makes sense to talk less if people have been rude to you.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: So I worked with a family of a young person where we were noticing that he would become overwhelmed with communication. That was like one thing after another. And I was noticing in different scenarios with different responses, whether it was he would fall to the ground, he might make a face, he might snap back and snarl back that it was one moment where I saw him drop to the ground, where it was 10 seconds and I thought about it and I was put this pattern together and said, hey, let's observe this with this lens now and see if it clicks. And the lens was a 10 second processing window. And so it was, let's just give that 10 seconds. And since this light bulb moment, the parents have seemed to be able to identify that in different areas and they're now building their understanding around that need for more time to process.
And we've acknowledged that as not a delayed processing time, there is no delay here, it's just that he needs that time to process.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: As Kate explained, validating the child's underlying needs doesn't necessarily mean being permissive of the behaviour itself.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: I think it's about helping them through the process of problem solving by showing them the procedure for how to figure out what they were trying to do and helping everyone to see, okay, something needs to change. But the strategy the kid was using isn't the only strategy. So it's not permissive to say I'm not angry at you for doing something that was not what I would have been ideal. It's not that they're not getting in trouble so that nothing is happening, it's they're not getting in trouble because they were doing their best. But if we could show them other strategies, they don't want to do things that bother people so they're going to stop doing them because they'll have better strategies. So it's making sure, especially for people who are worried about being permissive is sometimes about reframing what needs to be permitted in the first place. So if kids aren't particularly chatty to strangers and then so they come in and they don't say hi to me, and then the parents are going, you have to say hi. And, and then just really reframing, do they have to say hi? Why? I don't care. So sometimes it's about choosing your battles and like reframing things so that there are less things that need to be dealt with. And then when there are things that legitimately do need to change because they might be hurting other people, or they might be not effective as a form of self advocacy, then teaching new skills will solve that problem.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Esther and Bec discussed why an understanding of the whole family's context is essential to these conversations.
[00:06:32] Speaker D: I think a really important part of working with families is always getting a good picture of the full family unit individually as well as all together. So I think for me, I would always try and work to understand each person's perspective of what they're finding tricky, what kind of things they're finding really easy or enjoyable, for example, and, and to do this, I often target particular times of day. So often I would say something like, tell me the hardest time of day for you. And if someone says every part of every day, we have to get a little bit more specific. So often in kind of those younger age ranges, it's early in the morning or late at night. So we might kind of pick that getting ready for school, preschool, for example, and target specifically a time of day. So then we can approach them, I guess the supports and the understandings of how to make that a little bit easier. And then what happens when you support a family to make a certain time easier is they see the value in understanding further psychoeducation, further kind of strategies, understanding how to work with each other, manage each other's sensory needs, all of that kind of thing becomes a little bit easier because often we see people who are just so overwhelmed they don't know where to start. So if we can help them from the get go to get a little win to make a little time of their day easier, then I think it just flows on from there.
[00:07:51] Speaker E: If they can understand enough of who we are and what we're about in our family and they're willing to join us in how we support our kids already offer some new strategies within what can work for us. Because sometimes strategies are suggested and they just feel too hard for our circumstance. And that's when you go, yeah, we can't have this person advising Us and our family on how to do this, because that's not going to work in our family. Sometimes it's just got to be like really small little things or options or, you know, that recognition that sometimes you're not going to be able to do all your homework, you know, you're not going to be able to do all the things you can give them a go. And I think, yeah, that's what I have appreciated in practitioners that, you know, give you a selection of things that you might be able to try and maybe none of them will work or maybe a few of them will work, or maybe they'll work for a week and then they don't.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Meltdowns are a common presenting concern for autistic and adhder children. I asked Jason, Kate, Tammy and Jasmine to share their reflections.
[00:09:04] Speaker F: So I guess when I'm working with a young person that has troubles with meltdowns and I guess behavioural challenges as well, is again, again understanding that the ABCs, you know, the triggers that led up to it, the behavior itself and also the consequence of how it's being responded. And what's also very important is understanding what I call vulnerability factors. So factors that make that young person, I guess, more likely to have emotional distress or more likely to go into a meltdown. It could be things like lack of sleep, for example, sudden changes of routine, increased expectations on the child as well. So really try to understand and helping the parents or families to understand the triggers or the abominability factors that might lead to a meltdown or challenging behavior and then how we can probably reduce that or prevent that in the future as well.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Pattern finding is something that I encourage. Like the more you learn the patterns, the more you can predict what's going to happen. Because if they're seeing everything as isolated incidents, then that's really hard to deal with. And asking the kid, what was that like for you?
[00:10:14] Speaker G: Meltdowns happen when someone is in a prolonged state of distress or when there's just an immediate trigger. It could be either, it could be a buildup of stuff that leads to this meltdown. The most important thing is when that happens, you need to remember that the child isn't making a decision to do that. Your body's in fight or flight, it's happening, we just need to ride it out. But we need to support recovery and we need to reduce shame. We need to remember that that was not a sign of that child's personality, even because logical reasoning and personality are in the same space in that moment when they come down from it, they're either going to forget it or. Or they're going to feel really, really bad. And what we need is to hear, I still love you. It's okay. I know that made sense to you. And often things make sense, and that's why we have this meltdown, because no one's hearing you. So validating and understanding their experience and then using the experience as a learning opportunity later when they've recovered from that meltdown. We do not need to feel shame for having a meltdown. It's a normal response to a distressing situation.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: I think one key part that can be tricky, but is also quite impactful is understanding when it's best to ride it out. And whilst that might be uncomfortable because meltdowns are distressing and exhausting, they've got to come down sometimes, and there can be a sense of relief or release, perhaps that comes from a meltdown. And it can be a way to assert that autonomy and to get that out.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: As the parent of three neurodivergent children, I was interested to hear Jason's perspective.
[00:12:03] Speaker H: It's really hard because you're thinking, okay, what's triggered them? What's. What can I do to reduce the trigger or get them calm? So, like, for example, your child might need pressure, like, like a hug or something to. Or coming up to them and just giving them that high pressure feeling so that they're feeling safe or getting them out of that situation. So if it's bright light or if it's too noisy, things like that, it's. For me, regulating myself is really hard because I have some challenges myself. And so it comes down to, like, going, okay, well, you're having a meltdown. I don't want to have a meltdown. You know, so how are we going to get this, you know, sorted? And I think just helping myself by telling myself, okay, prioritize what we've got to get done. So, you know, if it's like, get them headphones on or take them out of that situation, and then I can deal with my own regulation later on. So I think it's important for practitioners to let parents know that these things are going to happen. And it could be a sensory overload that's a trigger for them. So, like, taking your child into a shopping center where there's loud music, there's crowds, there's bright lights, there's all these things could be a trigger, but it's nothing to be embarrassed about and it's nothing to feel ashamed about. It's just, you know, important. For parents to understand that these are behaviours that are going to come with neurodiversity and you'll find ways around managing that.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: As Jason mentioned, co regulation is an important and effective tool in supporting children of all ages to regulate their emotions. But building the child's own regulation skills is essential for their long term wellbeing. Esther explained how strengthening children's interoception, their ability to identify their body's signals, is a key part of this work.
[00:14:05] Speaker D: A really huge component of neurodiversity affirming practice is supporting autistic children to understand what uncomfortable feelings and sensations are like for them and that they should honour and listen to those uncomfortable feelings. Because I think historically what has happened due to ableism is that autistic children have been forced to push aside or deny or ignore those uncomfortable feelings in order to perform in neurotypical ways. So what I think neuroaffirming practice has done is said if you're uncomfortable, that's telling you something and it's not that you need to mask. So I think that is super helpful in allowing a child to then develop an understanding of adults that they feel safe with versus adults that they don't feel safe with because they haven't got that internalised feeling of I must do what adults tell me, I must behave in ways that look appropriate. They actually can truly sit with and understand like have that interoceptive ability to think what feels comfortable versus what feels uncomfortable.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: I asked Jason, Jasmine and Kate how they work with children to strengthen their interoception and build self regulation skills.
[00:15:13] Speaker F: So I think by understanding the young person as a whole, it can better inform us ways on how to help them self regulate. I personally find it very effective to use sensory self soothing strategies. That's really informed by DBT dialectical behavior therapy where we use our senses as a way of soothing ourselves as well. So for some children or young adolescents it could be, let's say using our scents. You know, if you find the scent of a lovely candle really soothing, using that as a way to help regulate, I call it like a sensory self soothing box. Or you put together some things that you find really comforting and relaxing and using that as a way to regulate as well.
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Sometimes it can be helpful to incorporate sensory activities into play and even into everyday life. It doesn't have to be a mundane therapy approach sort of style, for example, like repetitive physio exercises. Whilst I see the value in that, when we look at things like stimming, it's very different.
So an example could be that if someone, you know, wants to hop to the bathroom or roll to the bathroom, if they're getting there and they're doing what they need to do, is it really that bad that it could make that experience more fun too?
[00:16:35] Speaker A: What we can do is we can build the kids trust in themselves by showing them what they're already doing to self regulate a lot of the time, but they don't realize that that's what they're doing. So they're already fidgeting, but they think they're just fidgeting. And what we can tell them is, did you know that fidgeting is self regulation? And once they have that idea of like, oh, I already know what's going on in my body a little bit, which I didn't realize I did and I'm already taking action now, we can get more specific about the actions that we might be able to take.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: Kate went on to explain why self advocacy skills are important for self regulation.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: It's really important that while you're teaching them the skills to change the way their body is and you're teaching them to trust themselves that they know their bodies, being able to also teach them the self advocacy skills to be able to do that without feeling socially uncomfortable. Because if they know what to do, they might choose not to do it because it makes them feel weird. But if they can frame whatever they're doing as a positive, like, hey, isn't it cool that I can just do this and I can just change the.
[00:17:46] Speaker D: Way my body feels, so I'm just.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Going to do it now. People are going to accept it more than if it is framed as something that you have to do, otherwise you're going to disrupt or like if it's framed as something that you have to do because your hearing is so different, then you have to use noise cancellers and stuff, people are going to feel more confident to use the strategies.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: While self advocacy skills support positive mental health throughout our lives, children also need the adults around them to advocate on their behalf. I asked Esther to elaborate.
[00:18:21] Speaker D: I think having a teacher who understands neurodiversity of women practice is really helpful because advocating is way easier if you've got a teacher who just honours and listens to children's experiences. So I think again, going back to what is it that this child needs and how can we support them to have those needs met. Sometimes you have to come at it from a very clinical angle of, well, you know, for a teacher, we know that you want this child to learn well in the classroom. Like we want this child to have a good experience of school. So therefore this is what it needs to look like for them to learn in your classroom.
Really getting specific about what it is that they need to advocate for. For example, if that's wearing headphones in the classroom because it's too loud, what that might mean in terms of when they're wearing the headphones versus when they're not wearing the headphones, if they need to sit in certain spots in the classroom. So I think being the, the adult advocate for younger children is really, really important because that child is then seeing you using your voice strongly to make sure that they feel comfortable and well in different spaces in their life, which then will allow them to do that themselves.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: So how can practitioners support parents to strengthen their own advocacy skills? Jasmine, Tammy and Jason shared their thoughts.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: I think a lot of it is centred around boundaries when it comes to self advocacy and really understanding the difference between setting a boundary and making a request that a boundary exists to protect your own wellbeing. And if someone doesn't protect that wellbeing, that comes with consequences rather than being a request that you're at the mercy of, whether they agree or not, whether they want to comply. And I think even that someone needs to understand their rights and reasonable grounds to advocate for themselves as well. When people don't understand their rights and that it is reasonable and validated that they can set a boundary or advocate for themselves, that's probably when it can feel the most shaky to do it.
[00:20:44] Speaker G: Therapists could support parents to understand that it's okay to be loud about what that child needs.
So don't worry about being the squeaky wheel. If you have to contact the school every week to let them know this is what my child needs, why hasn't it been put in place yet?
[00:21:01] Speaker E: Do it.
[00:21:02] Speaker G: Sometimes you don't get what you need unless you ask. And if you are the squeaky wheel, eventually they will listen and then hopefully that will translate to all the other children in that environment who need a similar thing. The more we express what we need, the more they will listen. So the more parents advocating, the more they will listen and the system will change. And how quickly it changes is determined by how many of us are advocating.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: And supporting families and young people to practise in a safe environment is really important as well. So whether that's practising consent in your therapeutic environment, I often working with young people, particularly if they're overly compliant, really encourage the no side of it that you can say no. And often I say That I don't mind if you can say yes or if it's a maybe, but I'd really like you to be sure of your nos. And we start there.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: As Jason and Bec highlighted, practitioners also have a key role to play in advocating for children's needs.
[00:22:14] Speaker F: From my experience, unfortunately, especially working with schools, they do put more emphasis on, of course, ally of professionals over their own parents, individual voices. And that's quite disheartening because the parents do have a lot of understanding and knowledge about their own young person's unique challenges as well. So usually when that happens, a clinician or being a psychologist, we help support the families together in collaborating with the schools and how we can better support the young person. You know, we're not going for the pointing fingers kind of thing. It's all collaborative approach.
[00:22:47] Speaker E: As well as doing the assessment, they helped us develop a bit of a plan for what accommodations might be needed at school. And they were really sort of specific things around, you know, having visual reminders.
Having a big one was just not having homework because it just wasn't achievable and wasn't going to achieve anything for our child. The main thing was that they were getting so exhausted just by attending school for the whole day that there wasn't any point in trying to bring work home that wasn't finished and that some of their schoolwork would need to be maybe miss some elements that other children had, things like that. So I'm sure there's a name for it, but there was this sort of plan developed that we could put to the school and, you know, we had the backing of the psychologists that had helped us develop that, as well as them offering to talk to the school alongside us, because I think we'd been having a lot of conversations, but until that, we had that, I guess, backing by a practitioner saying the same things that we were saying.
It didn't necessarily get implemented in a busy school with a lot of children.
Sometimes you just need that backing from practitioners to make sure that your child's getting the support that they need here.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: For some families, a diagnosis of autism or ADHD can be difficult to accept.
Esther, Jason, Jasmine and Kate shared how they've navigated this in their work.
[00:24:31] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it's really hard sometimes when we have people who maybe have a lot of stigma around how autism or ADHD present and maybe just don't really quite understand what it looks like. So I tend to say, see a lot of families who they have this formal identification of autism or adhd, you know, They've seen a professional, and that professional has said, okay, your child's autistic. But the family still doesn't quite understand exactly what autism is or what that means. So I think what that leads to is people thinking that their children are being really naughty or really defiant or, you know, particularly obtuse for reasons unknown. But I think what happens when you help everyone understand actually what is autism and what does it look like and how does it present down to the nitty gritty of, you know, I'll go through all of the criteria and say, this is how this is probably showing up in this part of your life. And that's because your child is autistic or your child has adhd. And if we can help to bring them along in that understanding, I think that goes a long way in then understanding the child's perspective.
[00:25:38] Speaker F: I work with a lot of clients from an Asian background as well, and sometimes, I guess having a diagnosis of autism is almost considered a very taboo like topic. It's a very shameful thing in some certain cultures. It's like losing face, we call it in Chinese culture. And that can make it really incredibly hard to accept a diagnosis or even to let people know about the diagnosis as well. So as this guest, as a practitioner, I think it's very important to understand the cultural factors that might be involved in the person's family or young person's life to better understand how to better work with the family. And going gently with the family, working with them rather than against them, I think is very, very important.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Particularly with strong beliefs. I think it's important to value those and ensure that they have a place in conversations around neurodivergence, rather than looking at neurodivergence, challenging those values and beliefs that actually they can coexist together, rather than it being, again, a competition or a choice in between.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: Sometimes it takes a little bit more support to let go of some of those ideas that are keeping the parents safe psychologically.
So they shouldn't be expected to suddenly make themselves super vulnerable without support. I like to frame it as an exciting new thing that we can all learn about. So it's a positive thing. Like all of this learning experience is like freeing the parents from their worries about what are people going to think if my kid doesn't say hi to them? The parents get to be released from that worry. The kid gets to be released from the I have to say hi, even though I'm really uncomfortable. I like to frame it as, you didn't used to have a choice and now you do. Isn't that awesome? I try not to be too militant about it because it's not compassionate to the parents. It's like meeting everyone where they're at, not just meeting the kids where they're at, but where are the parents at as well.
And then it's about like the parents internalized worries and in the case of neurodivergent parents, internalized ableism. Like I have to say hi, otherwise I'm doing the wrong thing. That means my kid has to say hi, otherwise we are both doing the wrong thing. And that feeling is a. It's a freedom to get away from that for everybody.
[00:28:20] Speaker D: And I think the thing, you know, a more overarching and not talked about thing is, is that this idea of ableism is so pervasive in our society that the reason that it feels so bad is because neurotypical people are doing what you're meant to do because of ableism is that this is what's expected of you. But just because that's what's expected and what we see most often, that doesn't mean that it's the best way to approach communicating with other people, people. So I think also there's that real societal underpinning that I like to make clear is that you're not doing this because there's anything wrong with you or you're lesser than or anything like that. This is just your neurotype. And actually neurotypical people can learn to communicate in different ways too.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Esther, Jasmine and Kate discussed how they help families to shift their perspectives on neurodivergence.
[00:29:08] Speaker D: I think if we're helping to take away the stigma from autism and adhd, then a child's going to become more confident, they're going to become more comfortable in their environment, they're less likely to experience things like anxiety and depression because they fully understand how they see the world, how they interact with the world. And that that's totally normal for someone who is autistic or someone who has adhd. So for example, if they're looking at their room and it's a huge mess and they just don't know where to start. Instead of internalising that voice of I'm such an idiot. I never know what to do, I'm always so overwhelmed, I can't cope, you know, all of those kind of horrible internal monologues, it becomes more like, well, of course I find this hard because I have adhd. I find doing things step by step really hard. So therefore, here's what I can do. Here's what's going to help me. Here's who will help me, here's how things become easier. So it really just flips that and it means that they can develop that real strength and understanding of themselves rather than, yeah, beating themselves up about things that they find hard.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: I think sometimes I find it helpful to flip the narrative a little bit as well and challenge people to look for the strength in a problem or a difficulty. And so examples of that could be that someone might be highly fixated on a certain thing, but the strength might be that they have great attention to detail and they're really invested in each detail rather than it being that they overly fixate on things which might be seen as problematic. Other examples could be someone who might be seen as rigid. You know, we could look at that as someone that works really well with structure. Someone who we might look at to be argumentative might have a really strong sense of justice. The same if someone might be seen as blunt, which might be seen as problematic, we could look at that as someone who's quite honest and tells you exactly what they're thinking and takes the fluff out of it.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: I would say I really come back to this idea that being autistic isn't good or bad, being ada hesti isn't good or bad, being neurotypical isn't good or bad, but knowing what you are and working with yourself is good. Thinking you have one type of brain and actually having the other type of brain is bad because you are fighting with yourself and you're not able to make yourself comfortable while also doing the public facing things you want to be doing.
Whereas if you know yourself, you can be empowered. So it's always a good thing to learn you're autistic. It's not a good or bad thing to be autistic.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Thanks again to Jason Tran, Esther Fiddick, Kate Mulherron, Jasmine Deakin, Tammy Sinclair, Bec and Jason for sharing their time and wisdom with us. If you'd like to learn more about working with neurodivergent children, check out the links in our show notes and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear when our new online courses are released. In the meantime, thank you for listening and I hope you'll join us again soon.
[00:32:26] Speaker D: Visit our
[email protected] to access a range of resources to assist your practice.
[00:32:32] Speaker C: Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: The Centre is funded by the Australian.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: Government Department of Health and Aged Care under the national support for child and youth mental health.
