[00:00:00] Speaker A: To not just think that you know the story, but how is this child actually experiencing it? What does their life feel like to them? And make sure that you're responding to that. I think so often we tend to tell children how they should be feeling or override their thoughts with our own adult understanding and instead just to actually listen to what it's like for that child.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
This podcast is recorded on the unceded lands of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging from the different first nations across Australia.
[00:00:50] Speaker C: Hi everyone, my name is Dr. Carmela Bastian and and welcome to episode one of Child Centred Practice in Child Protection. I'm a social worker who has an extensive practice experience in working child protection. As an academic, my work has focused on the child protection practice, working with children in the context of complexity and child centred practice. I continue to explore and understand what it means to be child centred in the context of child protection.
As part of that I have joined with Emerging Minds to develop the following double episode podcast. Joining me on this podcast are Arabella, Amy and Chloe who are experienced practitioners in the field of child protection.
Arabella Stravolemas, a dedicated advocate committed to empowering and supporting vulnerable individuals, especially in the field of child protection. She's a graduate in social work and a member of the Australian association of Social Workers and also has personal experience as an individual with out of home care and has recently become a kinship carer.
Dr. Amy Bromley is project and advocacy lead for Child and Family Focus in South Australia.
Amy, a social worker who has spent more than a decade specialising in working with children, young people, families and carers. Amy holds social work degrees from South Africa and the United states and a PhD from Flinders University.
Also joining me is a social worker and senior manager, Chloe Henderson, who's working in children's services at Relationships Australia in South Australia. Chloe has experience in government and not for profit sectors specialising in child protection. Known for her restorative leadership approach and systems thinking mindset, Chloe emphasises emotional intelligence, mindfulness, honesty, humility and trust building in her work. Chloe acknowledges the cultural foundations of her work in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traditions and is committed to cultural fitness. I began by asking Amy what child centred practice means for her.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: For me, I think when you're being child centred it means holding the child at the centre of your thinking and and you're doing, but that also means Two things. So firstly, thinking about how this world must look through a child's eyes, so all the things that are happening around them, how are they experiencing it, but then also the decisions that are being made, how is this actually affecting them in the long term? So just making sure that all your thinking is actually going back to that child and what it's like for them.
[00:03:31] Speaker C: Chloe described her commitment to genuinely listening to children in ways that allows their voice to be safely heard and and encouraged as part of child centred practice.
[00:03:43] Speaker D: We've got to start with the heart of the matter, which is I think child centred practice at its core means placing the child, not the system, not the professionals, not even the parents, at the centre of everything we do. So it's about prioritising safety, emotional needs, wellbeing their voice and their rights. And it's a commitment to recognising that children are not just witnesses to harm, they are experiences of it, they absorb it. And I think also gone are the days where children are seen and not heard. We know about the United nations conventions of the rights of the child, but what we aren't actually good at as a system is hearing the voice and turning that into decision making.
And we know that the research tells us consistently that children feel like pawns in big people's games in the context of child protection. They're moved around, they're spoken about, they're assessed, but they're not listened to and they're not agents in their own story. So I think when we listen to children, we create the conditions where they can feel safe enough to speak. And I think we consistently discover that they know so much more than we initially think. We have young people that we work with, as young as four, that are able to very accurately describe their parents drug use. And I think child centred practice really challenges the adult centric system systems that we work in. Children can't any longer be an afterthought.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: As someone with lived experience, Arabella provided her insights into child centred practice and the critical need for practitioner curiosity.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Listening versus hearing, big difference there. Not just asking what they want, but shaping systems so their truth can shape the outcome. I think it's really important to hold space and like, remain curious and not just assume, but just sit in the silence and the discomfort and just be curious about their story. They can tell you some pretty cool stuff in between. I also think, like the sharing the power.
I've found that the only time there's any breakthrough with a kid is when you actually just realize that you're an adult. Like and that you know, even in height wise especially you need to put yourself down at their level. And then even a simple act of saying oh like can you help me open up my pen?
I can't do it. They're like oh you know, that's silly. But then they do it and they're like it's done. I'm like oh thank you so much. Like that can actually change the dynamics pretty quickly.
So it's understanding that you're an equal or even in that moment it's important for them to feel more in control of their environment. Kids know a lot, especially when they've been through like immense trauma. Like they, they've seen it firsthand, they didn't learn about this in textbooks, it's their story. So like don't sugarcoat it but let them lead the conversation.
Be curious. I think that's my main point in there is you have to be curious about people.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: I asked Chloe how practitioners can truly honour a child's unique story and lived experience in ways that don't risk them misinterpreting or, or imposing their own truths or judgments.
[00:06:46] Speaker D: There's an aboriginal concept that we talk about a lot at relationships Australia called dadiri, which is listening deeply. It's a deep reflective space, it's heart based listening and it invites us into a really intersubjective space where we can be with the child and we don't impose or colonise one version of that child's truth. We sit with it and we co create meaning and it really does mean slowing down and suspending your judgment and we cannot rush to define or fix.
And like I said, we can't colonise a single view of the truth. But you've got to be like a detective with this child to find what their thing is and go with that and be prepared to make so many mistakes and laugh at yourself. And I think it really means, as I've talked about before, incorporating their voices into actual decision making. So the family case plan or the family safety map or safety plan, whatever you call it, their voices are central to that and we can't judge to those adult assumptions that we make. So I think also it's just recognising we have to recognise that a child's story is very much intertwined with their family. We have to engage caregivers views and their narrative not to replace the child's voice but to add depth and context to it. So I think, and personally and professionally I believe the most healing conversations happen when families can just talk openly about harm. So we as practitioners need to facilitate that. Name it, witness it without shame or blame. And if we know something, we have to let the child know what we know. That's really, really important. And Dan Hughes talks about it. How ridiculous it is that sometimes some therapists, you just wait for a child to tell you. If you know something, you can go to a child and say, I'm here. Because I know there's been a lot of really scary fighting going on. That must be incredibly scary for you. You see just a wave of relief from kids.
She knows, okay, so we have to help. When I talk about the fragmented memories, it's helping children to actually integrate their stories and take. It becomes their story. It's the greatest gift I think we can give to children and families.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: Arabella talked about the need to genuinely listen to a child's story without prejudice, so that conversations can be encouraged rather than closed down.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: I think the lived experience in me now is being activated where like, a lot of the times, you know, you get case notes and you read a story. Even me as a practitioner, like, you have this big file beforehand and you're reading through, trying to learn about them and understand their story and you have team meetings about it as well. And you think you know and you're going in there with, well, intentions. But sometimes, like now, I don't even want to see the case notes. I actually just want to listen and actually just hear it from their perspectives. Like there's always three truths, like how they perceive it, how you perceive it, and how it actually happened. So understanding it through their perspective without any biases or like preconditions, especially when it comes to like a very compliance led industry. Like, it's. I think this is. I hear this a lot and I really don't like it anymore. Stop thanking people for sharing. Like, thank you for sharing. That must have been hard.
Or acknowledge. I acknowledge that must have been really difficult for you to say that. It really sounds condescending. It's like, you're welcome. It doesn't really invite the open conversation there. It kind of shuts it down.
And for me, it feels like the person's not equipped to actually take on what I'm saying. They don't have the skills to then further this.
I found for me in therapy, it's the ones that actually challenge that and go into the emotion behind it. And. And that's when I start to actually feel what's going on and I'm not trying to protect the other person from my experience.
So you have to be willing to kind of go into that discomfort and also to adapt their care plan to reflect their wishes. You have to action what they're saying, not just say thank you and acknowledge it needs to actually be seen and talk to them about it like kids know.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Amy described her problem approach to treating every child as unique and to actively considering the experience of meeting with you.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: Well, I think the word unique there is so important because it's really easy when you do this work to start to feel like you've heard the story before, you've seen things play out before you know where this is going and to just really take the time to understand that this is a unique child and they've never experienced the story before. The story's being written actively every day. And so to, to not just think that you know the story, but how is this child actually experiencing it? What does their life feel like to them and make sure that you're responding to that. I think so often we tend to tell children how they should be feeling or override their thoughts with our own adult understanding and instead just to actually listen to what it's like for that child.
[00:11:37] Speaker C: Arabella shared some stories from her own childhood about how systems and practices worked effectively and not so effectively for her.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: I was with someone for maybe over five years and I really liked this person. And then she got promoted and I didn't see her again. And that there was a really big breakdown for me because then the next person that came along wasn't. Wasn't that person for me. And I was really resistant towards connecting with them, which I feel like in hindsight was a barrier for me. Transitioning out of care because I just completely disengaged and didn't actually have any support. So I was just left alone. And luckily for me, I had other safety factors in place that meant that I was going to be okay. But it's really important to have that consistency for that child, especially when they're unpacking their story or in this first 12 months of being removed. I think that that's the time when they need someone who is a safe point of contact and is consistently showing up for them in the way that they knew and then also just always remain curious over control. Yeah, you have to just be in that, like, oh, okay, like why is that the behavior here? Like, why is there? What are the factors and what do I kind of need to do to be there for the child? And opposite action here is really good. So if they're hard, remain soft. It's just whatever they're doing do the opposite and model differently. I had a social worker once when I was really little, and I went through so many because I had reunification twice a week for two years when I was in care, like 5 to 7 years old. And I didn't like the social workers who tried to take me away if my mum didn't turn up or whatever the situation was. And it wasn't about them, it was just the moment.
And this guy, his name was Ray, he was an older man and he came in and he had a newspaper, and I was like, ready to kind of box on every single time. Like, you're not getting me in that car. Like, watch, it's not going to happen. And he just, like, opened up his newspaper and he was just like, I'm going to read this for now. Let me know when you're ready. This is pretty interesting for me. Not willing to fight you, but I'm going to be here with you until you're ready to go. And I was like, ah, all right, let's go in the car.
I'm not going to wait around watching you read a newspaper.
And like, eventually, as soon as I saw that newspaper, I knew the situation. So I got in the car. But then after a while, he said, let's go to a park. Let's go get a hot chocolate. I'm gonna advocate for two marshmallows so you know you're happy. And I was like, 100%, let's do it. And I, like, saw him. So even though a moment that was really uncomfortable and really sad for me because maybe my mom didn't turn up or she did, and it was really heightened, I was like, it's okay, like, Ray's here and we're gonna go get hot chocolate afterwards. And that's really fun. So it reshaped the next step for me. So instead of going home and being really dysregulated and often meant an absolute explosion in the house and me feeling horrible and just being out of sorts, it changed it to, this is actually a good moment for me. And I will always remember Ray for that because that was that seed that he planted for me that made me realize that, like, I am, like, I am worthy and someone is going to be here for me. So it's a small act. It's a newspaper and hot chocolate. Very small, but made such a difference.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: I asked Amy how we create systems and practices that can genuinely listen to children's views.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: I think one of the most challenging things is to look at how we prioritise different aspects of a child's wellbeing. It can be very easy to decide as an adult that something's more important than what a child is experiencing or feeling. And it's challenging for all of us because we know that there are times when we might have to make decisions that a child's not in complete agreement with because they're simply not safe or because the risk is just too great. At the same time, I think we often go too far in that and we undermine aspects that are so important to a child. I think, for example, from my own childhood, moving school, schools, how traumatic that is. How easy is it, though, just to look at a situation for a child and say, oh, I'm helping them to move school, it'll make things so much easier, you know, less travel time or they're in a, you know, living with a new family or this or that. But again, actually just thinking about what is that like for a child and just how incredibly overwhelming and terrifying it is to change schools. So a lot of that emotional well being and relational safety, I think we deprioritize when it's actually vital to a child's wellbeing.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: I asked Chloe to describe some of her core principles in Planning for Authentic Connections where children are centred in all aspects of care and healing.
[00:16:30] Speaker D: I can speak to that from a management perspective, intensive family services.
I broke that question down into four, I suppose, and I think the clarity I want to first say is authentic connection isn't soft or vague, but it's built on tangible and disciplined principles. And when some of them are missing, children can easily become invisible. So the first one for me is radical attunement. And so for me, this means showing up fully present, noticing not just what a child says, but what they don't say and what they're trying to express through play or their silences. And it really acknowledges that healing as a practitioner, we need to understand that healing for a child does not happen on our timeline, it happens on theirs. So secondly, non punitive accountability.
So for me, that's children, parents, families, they all make mistakes, so do we. And when a rupture happens, we stay in.
As the practitioners, we need to stay in and we repair and we model that accountability without any shame.
This is restorative practice, this is safety, organised practice, this is trauma informed practice. And so when we separate the behaviour from the person, we hold both the child and their caregivers in a circle of dignity. The third one for me is shared power. So as practitioners, we need to acknowledge we hold a lot of power. And this principle cuts right down to the heart of, you know, colonial hierarchical systems. So true child centered care invites the child and their family into co creation. So what I mean by that is we don't fix, we stand beside them, maybe sometimes behind them. And as you said before, for we're being with, not doing two or four and so we're making space for voice even when it challenges us. And the last one for me is cultural humility and justice. So authentic connection requires us to decolonise our thinking. It's not enough to just apply generic tools. We have to honour specific cultural, historical, spiritual realities for the children and families we're working with. And we need to acknowledge, particularly for our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families, that this, this is collective healing, is collective and it's tied to the land, ancestors and story. And so just finally for me, I think we also have to have a future orientation. And so what I mean by that is often we'll ask parents, and yeah, parents of children who experience harm in their care, to admit what you've done, you know, you've got to admit it first. It's a very, it's an old school psychodynamic way, you've got to have insight before you can move forward. But some of our families have not ever experienced safety in a felt sense. So helping parents to hold their child in mind in an attuned way, but to also imagine a future state of safety and what that feels like can be absolutely life changing. And so I think that's our challenge.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: Amy described some of her core principles in building authentic connections with children.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Probably the most important principle is actually just one of humility. And that really underpins everything in recognising that as an adult, even unintentionally, I hold so much power over children. Power in thinking that I know better, power in thinking that I understand. And again, like I said, it's so easy to tell children, oh, you'll be fine or this doesn't matter or that doesn't matter or don't feel sad. We're constantly correcting their own internal experiences. And so just to sit back with humility and recognize that this child might be experiencing things very differently to how I am. This family might be very different to the way that I would expect a family to function, but that doesn't mean that there's a right or a wrong and just being humble in how I am approaching a child and family.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: I asked Arabella about how we can create connections built on understanding and connecting.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: So As a practitioner, I think it's like listening, understanding what your presence means, especially when working with families that have intergenerational systems. We don't want to see you, who are you, you're in our house for what reason? You're not family, you're not a friend, you're just a person who I have to see here, understand that like you're not a positive person that they're seeing. It's something that has been enforced now over time. And like after you've built the rapport and trust, that's when you know those relationships are formed. But it's formed based on like it's enforced.
So if you understand that, then I think that will make you reflect on your own practice, which like, second point is reflective practices. Their biases triggers their history, even cultural context within that, like what is their stories are there, everything about them, everything encompassed, systems, biases there. So, and then your own and how you see the world. I often have had to see in that discomfort as well and kind of go, oh, hold on a second, like am I thinking this because of this? And where does that come from in me?
Where do I need to kind of adjust myself here and adapt to actually be there for my, like my client.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: I asked Amy about her approach to responding to children's experiences of trauma and disrupted attachment.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: This is really challenging because for me, when I think about what is essential, there's just so much that comes to mind and I think that really speaks to how complex this work is and why we should really, really value and honor and support the people who do this work. Because the amount of knowledge and skills you need is just extraordinary. If we're thinking about all the knowledge domains, we've got child development, we've got trauma, and with that, particularly our relational development theories, for example attachment theory, really being able to understand the effects that the environment and significant others have on who a child becomes in their life and their development and well being. I think adding to that, we also need to understand how we can facilitate change because ultimately that's what we're trying to do. And we want that change to be safety and well being. And so there's a lot of beautiful theories that actually talk about change, particularly within families. And so actually having a clear understanding of why am I doing what I'm doing and how is that going to create change, how is that going to make things better for this family?
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Arabella commented on the importance of a focus on best interests for children who have experienced trauma.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: I think when you think of like Safety and best interest.
It might have been safer in the moment, but what's the long term implications of that? So if you take my story for example, yes, the safety thing for me as a child was to be removed, but what happened then was with my mum not having the proper supports that she needed back then and having the early interventions, she went on to have a whole bunch of more kids. And now I'm from a sibling group of one, one of 10 and five of us were removed in different times. So five of us have been removed. And that is a trauma in itself. Something that I had to wear like every single day.
And that's not even mentioning the other ones and their story in between, which also have their own traumas.
You changed our family and didn't think of the long term implications for all of us and our individual stories. So yes, you might think it's safe in the moment, but the things that you're making me unpack after the fact is just not fair.
And having that responsibility, like, yes, I need to take control of my future and break the cycle for me, but it is such hard work to do that and especially when there's younger children involved like my siblings. And it just, it shouldn't. If we're the ones that have been taken and removed because of safety and you're trying to make us have a better life, then help us unpack our stories, give us the words behind our emotions.
It shouldn't just be conceptualizing everything as well, like give us the scripts as well, like in design, like do it together. So if you really want to see that change is change the way you're going about it first of all and plant those seeds that are going to actually change intergenerationally. It shouldn't just be the expectation of the child to pick themself up and be strong and be resilient. Because these are not favorable words to hear about yourself. It's really glamorized. I don't want to be strong, I want to be soft. And do not test my resilience. Let me be safe. Give me an environment where I can actually explore the world and feel safe in doing so.
Give me my safety because a child deserves that, that's their right. And to challenge it and then glamorise it afterwards is just a really unfair expectation.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: Chloe described her practice principles in working with children who have experienced trauma.
[00:25:43] Speaker D: When we talk about centering a child's needs in the face of trauma, I think we have to begin with one truth, which is I've mentioned it before. But healing does not happen in isolation. And as practitioners, we cannot aim for wholeness within the child and do that in isolation, one on one with the child. It happens in relationship. And we know that. The research tells us that one of the most powerful protective factors for a child is the quality of their attachment to caregivers or a caregiver. And David Mandel speaks about this so beautifully when he reminds us that support for both the child and a caregiver who are experiencing difficulties, domestic violence, but this is applicable across the board. So when we support that child and that caregiver together, we don't just reduce risk, but we actually foster recovery. And we know that that's just not emotionally reparative, it's actually neurologically transformative.
And so for me, we know when children are exposed to violence, harm, abuse, danger, their sense of safety and their ability to trust others is just disrupted. They don't go to school, they can't make friends.
So we need to aim for long term intergenerational healing. And to do that, I think at Relationships Australia, we rely on experts like Professor Jennifer McIntosh. She's helped us understand that attachment isn't just a theory, but it's a lived, felt experience. And so we need to look for that emotional tie between caregivers and their kids. And we're not measuring attachment as a label, but we're listening for the bond. You know, we're asking questions like, how is this child held in the mind of a sensitively attuned other? How does Mum express her affection? How does Dad's trauma interfere with his ability to connect? How sensitive is Mum to her child's needs?
So, you know, we need to be thinking about this and we need to. We use holistic risk screening and our family safety mapping. It's very much informed by signs of safety that, as I've mentioned before, helps caregivers to imagine a future state of safety, not just the absence of harm. And that's a really critical point. And lastly, I just wanted to. There's a really good quote that I like, but I can't remember who said it, but it's. You cannot be what you cannot see. So, like I've said before, a lot of our families have not experienced consistent safety. So imagining that future state isn't just safety planning, isn't just a practice process, it's therapeutic.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: That brings us to the end of episode one of Child Centred Practice in Child Protection. I'm Dr. Carmela Bastian and I want to sincerely thank our guests, Dr. Amy Bromley, Arabella Stravolemos and Chloe Henderson for their insightful and thoughtful answers. Please join us for episode two of Child Centred Practice in Child Protection in a fortnight's time when Amy, Arabella and Chloe will will describe their views of practitioner skills, key challenges working with parents and the importance of reflective practice in a child protection context. I look forward to you joining us.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Then visit our website
[email protected] au to access a range of resources to assist your practice.
Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health, Disability and Ageing under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.
