[00:00:00] Speaker A: As a practitioner, are you having inviting language model that so then it becomes a comfortability for someone else or even just point it out and be like, look, I'm noticing you're like this to me that like I'm seeing that you're not comfortable here. Is there something that I can do to make you feel more comfortable?
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
This podcast is recorded on the unceded lands of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging from the different first nations across Australia.
[00:00:45] Speaker C: Hi everybody. Thank you so much for joining me again for episode two of Child Centred Practice in Child Protection. My name is Dr. Carmela Bastian. I'm a social worker who has an extensive practice experience in working child protection. As an academic, my work has focused on the child protection practice, working with children in the context of complexity and child centred practice. I continue to explore and understand what it means to be child centred in the context of child protection. As part of that, I have joined with Emerging Minds to develop the following double episode podcast. Joining me on this podcast are Arabella, Amy and Chloe, who are experienced practitioners in the field of child protection.
Arabella Stravolemas, a dedicated advocate committed to empowering and supporting vulnerable individuals, especially in the field of child protection. She is a graduate in social work and a member of the Australian association of Social Workers and also has personal experience as an individual with out of home care and has recently become a kinship carer.
Dr. Amy Bromley is project and advocacy lead for Child and Family Focus in South Australia.
Amy, a social worker who has spent more than a decade specialising in working with children, young people, families and carers. Amy holds social work degrees from South Africa and the United states and a PhD from Flinders University.
Also joining me is a social worker and senior manager, Chloe Henderson, who's working in children's services at Relationships Australia in South Australia. Chloe has experience in government and not for profit sectors specialising in child protection. Known for her restorative leadership approach and systems thinking mindset, Chloe emphasises emotional intelligence, mindfulness, honesty, humility and trust building in her work. Chloe acknowledges the cultural foundations of her work in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traditions and is committed to cultural fitness. I began by asking Chloe, what are the most essential and powerful skills that practitioners need to cultivate to build genuine trust and connection, particularly with vulnerable children who have experienced trauma.
[00:03:08] Speaker D: I think the children that we are working with have consistently been let down by systems and adults in their lives. So I think as practitioners we really need to take the stance of you've got to follow through on your word and you've got to show a young person that you can be trusted. How you do that depends on the unique needs and strengths and interests of that child. But we've spoken about dadiri, I think, you know, Western culture we call something like active listening. But for me it's deeper than that. It's heart based listening. So not just what you're hearing with the ears, but what you're seeing and hearing and feeling within your heart. And that sounds corny, but it's just how you truly connect with a child when you do that process, you know, share a small piece of yourself, show a child that it's okay to be vulnerable and do that and highlight their strengths and their resilience and their stories of survival when you hear them. Because you will hear them if you're looking and if you're asking the right questions and just show them that it's really safe to be seen. I've got an example of this that I actually did with a young person many years ago.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: So.
[00:04:08] Speaker D: So, you know, you're imagining you're walking in, you're from the Department for Child Protection or somewhere else. And we often just go straight to parents and talk about why we're here and what we're gonna do. Maybe we'll say hello to the kid or kids, but maybe not. So instead of sort of often, we'll go in and children tell us all the time, I don't even know really what you're here for. You're just that lady that comes and talks at the kitchen table with mum and dad. I think an example of this is when we step into a family's home. I think honestly, quite quickly you should just be naming to that child what you know and why you're here. So an example of that is, hi, I'm Chloe. I'm here to work with your mum and dad and you. Because I've heard there's a lot of fighting and yelling and hitting going on between dad and mum. This must be so scary for you. You've had to call the police a lot of times. That's so brave. But you are only eight and you shouldn't have to call the police or feel so scared. So I'm going to be talking with mum and dad today about how we might be able to try and make things better for you. And I'd really like to get to know you when you're let me. And so what I'm saying here to this child in simpler terms is I know something's happened and it's not your fault and I'm going to work with your parents, but also you about how we're going to make this better. It sounds simple but it's just so often overlooked. We can spend months in a family home before we might even get to this with a child, if we even do that. And you literally, like I've said, you see a wave of relief. You can feel it, it's visceral. They go, and we've got so many examples of this where, you know, you have a child that shuts themselves in the bedroom when, when you come, but if you just raise your voice enough that they might be able to hear and speak in a really child friendly way, maybe make a joke, I can guarantee you they're quietly listening in that room. And we've had many examples where eventually that child emerges and they've got a seat at the table. And we are family safety mapping and we're going, how's mum and dad going with this? Actually, actually last weekend, Mum and Dad, what happened? Okay, let's talk about that. And that's just that family widening of the circle. Brilliant therapeutic work that we actually have to get to with our, with our families. And just one other quote that I want to say here from Richard Rose. I love this quote but I'm going to read it word for word. Yes, the danger of retraumatizing children is at its highest during times where there is ongoing risk within the home.
And so the ability of the practitioner and the knowledge they have of the child must be equal to the risk. Yes, we're working in crisis. There might be active violence perpetrators in the home, but so we need to know that child as best as we can and make that equal to the risk. And that's how you can still maintain and hold that child's core experience in the context of crisis or danger. And I think that often we often avoid that as practitioners. Oh, if I open this up, I'm making it more risky for this child. But these kids are living it. They know exactly why you're there and they're frustrated that you're not asking them or talking to them.
[00:06:58] Speaker C: Amy described her view on the importance of practice relationship skills with vulnerable children.
[00:07:05] Speaker E: By far the most important skill is relationship skills. Even if someone doesn't have a lot of knowledge, knowledge you can learn, you can read, you can gain that, but the skills to sit down and Talk to a family, talk to children, help them feel safe and comfortable, to have empathy, to help them open up. Nothing is more important than that. Being able to hold relational continuity with children and families across time. By having that approach where you're very honest but very kind and compassionate and understanding, that's by far your most powerful change agent.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Arabella provided an example of ways that she builds relationships with children in. In the context of her own work.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: I'll just like, talk about an example where I recently, I went into a room where a young boy in care was there and he immediately ran and hid behind toys. You know, I could have easily gone and, like, gone up to him and try to move the toys and be like, oh, like, I'm safe.
But I didn't. I, like, I actually just started talking to the other person. I was like, oh, like, did you see Peppa Pig just move there?
[00:08:11] Speaker D: Like, oh, my. Oh, like, Peppa.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Like, what are you doing? Like pep, you know, and we'll talk about nicknames. I'm like, yeah, me and Pepper on nickname bases now. And then, you know, the kid went under a blanket and I was like, is that a magic carpet over there? I wonder what, like if. If it moves like this, is it trying to say yes or no? And I was like, magic carpet, like, lift up a little bit if you like this game or that. And then it would move a little bit and I'm like, oh, it scared me. Like, I didn't know that they could move. Like, and then it would, like, magic Harper would come closer to me and I'm like, no, no, no, Magic Harpa.
[00:08:47] Speaker D: Stay there.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: And then eventually, like popped out and it was like, ah, gotta get you. And I was like, oh, please, please don't. And I really just went goofy. I think it's really. Be playful, like, tap into your inner child and be the weirdest parts of yourself because that's where the magic happens and you're gonna find yourself. What I was gonna say is I think a lot of people, practitioners or just people in general, do not like discomfort or what could happen if you probe a little bit further. It's like the. You'd rather the. Hey, how are you? I'm good. Not actually. I don't know how to manage this afterwards. Like, there's. What do I do next? Is like, okay, it's probably going to get a bit uncomfortable and that could happen. But that's like, worst case scenario.
Think about maybe Glass half full. What could really work here?
[00:09:34] Speaker C: Maintaining a child centred focus when engaging with parents who are also navigating their own trauma histories and can be challenging. I asked Amy how she balances empathy for parents with strong advocacy for the child's needs.
[00:09:49] Speaker E: And this is one of the most challenging areas. I think for me, what matters most is to never separate the two.
And that can be hard, particularly when we start looking at even your eligibility for services and things like that. You've got who is the designated client and things like that. But that's a very artificial creation that we put onto things, families instead. If we're thinking about a child, there's never a child in isolation. There's a child and someone. And so we need to be thinking, well, who is that someone to this child?
Everything that we're doing has to have those relationships as part of our intervention with that child. If we're doing something that's disconnecting the child from those relationships or we're not considering those relationships, then we can't be child centered because you can't simply look at the child outside of that context of their family, of their kin, of their community.
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Chloe commented on the challenges of working with parents in an empathetic yet child centred way.
[00:10:45] Speaker D: It's still meaningful to hear as practitioners, to hold a child's core experience, but it's even more meaningful and healing long term if we can create a therapeutic loop back to parents so they can hold that story and when they're ready to, they can help a child and by way themselves move through. It's totally, totally not easy. I think it's a compass for us that must guide your every conversation. How can I create a therapeutic loop for that child's experience back to the parent or parents or family? And I think I've definitely seen that when a parent, even in the context of their own trauma, can see things through their child's eyes, often for the very first time.
It is just the most profound moment of change. We ask parents, often without them even realising, like a family talked about, to imagine, to try and imagine a future state of safety. So it's about not walking in there and going, this is what you've done wrong, or this is my judgment of your parenting and you are abusing your child. It's more about what can you imagine a future state of safety might be like for you and your children. And I think, like Bessel van der Kolk talks about trauma being stored in our nervous system, so in our bodies. And like Aboriginal practices for over 60,000 years have been acknowledging that it's just the science is caught up and there's fancy language for it. But I think that's what I mean when I'm talking about a future state of safety. So, you know, sometimes when we're safety planning with families, we often start in that column of what's working well, but then what needs to happen. And often that can be, what would it feel like for you to feel safe and confident in your caregiving? And I've got an example in mind where, you know, we were able to sit with a bum. It was almost a mindful, meditative, like, engagement with her where it was just close your eyes and just. And we just went with it. It was myself and another practitioner years ago and it was just closure eyes. Imagine what it feels like to just be calm. Your heart is not beating so fast. You are not scared. No one's coming to get you.
You're feeling joy with your kids. And she just broke down and we just, we grabbed that. That was like, okay, this is the moment. She has just maybe felt safety for the first time ever in an imagined state state. But that was really, really real for her. And I think, like I've said too, I think it's also about like these very orthodox systems where we just try and other the bad parent or the particularly men who use violence, but we do it to mums and other caregivers as well, other than we cast them out and go, no, that behaviour is so bad, you're broken. But I think, you know, we can learn to walk a more delicate line where we can hold parents, fathers, mothers, caregivers accountable for their harmful behaviours without stripping away their dignity or the essential truth that they are just struggling to be like, for example, the father you want to be. So we need to express to parents we value your role as a mother or father. We respect this bond. But your behaviour is harming your child and that's not okay. We've got to do something to put that right.
And I think like you said, it is such hard work, but we see it in our work. It can be done.
We have some beautiful questions that we've developed at Relationships Australia and some of our programs that really help to elicit responses from caregivers that one might indicate the potential for real change, but to help really, you know, centre that whole healing journey between parents and child concurrently. So some of the questions are, how do you think what has happened has impacted your relationship with your child?
If you could go back and change anything in the past about what's happened to your child, what would it be?
If you could say, sorry to your child for anything that's happened, what would it be? What do you want your child to feel from you in the future? What would you want your child to get out of you being their mum or dad? And what is one thing you would like to promise your child for the future? And sometimes we get. Some parents might actually write a letter to their baby and then we actually get them to read that letter to the baby, which they, you know, can. Feels strange, but it's just a powerful moment of connection.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: I asked Arabella to describe changes she would recommend to practitioners to become more patient and empathetic with parents and families.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: I'll say what I'm trying to learn for myself is stop pathologising and, like, having to find, like, it doesn't have to fit into a box. And also to, like, within the same is just listen to your intuition, your body. Like, we've got so much input these days. Like, expert here, expert here, like, theory, this theory that is just too much. So we've, like, as a society, I think we've lost our ability to actually listen to our internal judgment. And we're so worried about everything and getting it right and that's that perfectionism. So it's like, stop that for a second. Like, just pause and listen to your body and do this practice of alongside the people that you're working with as well and ask them to kind of reflect on where they're at as a practitioner. Are you having inviting language? How are they reflecting that? Like, maybe model that so then it becomes a comfortability for someone else. Or even just point it out and be like, look, I'm noticing you're like this to me, that, like, I'm seeing that you're not comfortable here. Is there something that I can do to make you feel more comfortable? But even in just saying, like, you know, you're closed off, they might go, oh, I'm not. I didn't realize I'm even doing that. Like, that's just how I naturally do it. But then they might relax their body a little bit and then you can invite that to be like, okay, let's have a little moment of resetting here and, like, just move your body a little bit and do a body scan, take some deep breaths and then we can start again. And that's okay, I'm here with you.
Take it step by step. And it doesn't have to be like, we don't have to figure it all out right now, let's just do what we can. And then that's when you Start feeling again the emotions. And I think that's like the human aspect that we're missing in like Western society. And it's so enforced into us like one way is the right way. But I think there's such beauty in old practices that we need to start actually acknowledging like it seems like very Wawa and it's a woke kind of language. But I'm like, it's not woke, it's actually the traditional ways of how we used to be as humans before society and the Internet kind of like altered our mind.
And I would, I'm trying my best to kind of like pause and go, okay, hold on a second. What, what kind of person do I want to be here? Especially when I'm working with vulnerable people. What's my legacy within that? So like reflecting on my own values and what my intentions are, I really try my best and I'm not perfect like at all. I'm still learning, very much so. But what is purposeful practice and what do I want to leave behind here? And I make a difference by my presence in someone's life. It doesn't have to be grand, but I need to understand what that means.
So I'm just really mindful of that and then doing the reflective practice afterwards.
[00:17:52] Speaker C: Amy provided two key changes that she would recommend in child centred practice.
[00:17:58] Speaker E: The first thing I would recommend is to spend more time with children. Just spend more time with them and do something that is fun, do something that is consistent, provide a sense of routine and structure so that children know that you're going to be there, you're going to consistently show up, that it's going to be enjoyable and that you're going to become someone that they can open up to. And that might take a really long time, but just consistently, consistently showing up to be there for them.
The second thing I would say is always hold in mind that every other adult you're working with that's important to this child was a child themselves. And you want to establish the type of relationship with those adults that you wish they had when they were younger and they were children and you hope that they can offer to their child. So in being child centered, it doesn't just mean dismissing the people who are now adults, it's also recognizing that most of the time there are often her children who are now in adult bodies and you can provide that same child centered focus to everyone in the family. With so many of the children we work with opening up and talking about their experiences or particularly disclosing things that are harmful or unsafe or risk they've learned that it's not safe to do that, that it causes bad things to happen, that it might mean they can't see the people they care about anymore. And so taking the time to actually offer that safe space, space, recognising that children are so often testing you and that you need to again show up again and again and again for them, that's a process and there's nothing you can do to speed that up except be empathic and consistent.
[00:19:34] Speaker C: Following on from Amy, Chloe also provided two changes she would like to see as part of child centred practice.
[00:19:42] Speaker D: Pretty straightforward, actually. I think practitioners just need to increase the frequency of their one to one contact with children and just sense it out. If you're not confident, just sense it out with that child. Get creative, be silly. Who's the audience?
Am I collecting enough people important to that child that I can then share their voice with permission to. And then what's the influence, that child's voice that you've sought? How are you turning that into influence within your practice or intervention with that child? And I think the second one actually is really, you need to implement feedback mechanisms where we're letting children know how their input has been valued and that really reinforces their sense of agency. We're actually collecting these voices consistently with children with permission and we're going to analyse that thematically because we're realising that these kids are telling us so much and then we're changing our practice and we're getting even better. And so I think, yeah, get feedback from kids and actually show them, where possible, how they've had an influence.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: I asked Arabella about the importance of self awareness and reflective practice for practitioners who aim to stay genuinely child centred and trauma informed. I also asked her about some effective ways to build this self awareness.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: You simply cannot have empathy if you do not have self awareness, because you need to know yourself before you can even begin to understand someone else. If you haven't sat with your own emotions, then how can you say, I really understand and I feel you? Because you don't. You're not feeling yet, so you need to sit there and go, okay, like in that darkest moment or like, you know, what did I feel kind of there? Where's the shame that I'm resistant towards and be vulnerable? People know, like, if you're not being vulnerable and those barriers are, you're not going to have those breakthrough moments with anyone if you're not willing to kind of step into that. And it's a hard ask, it's not to be done all at once.
I think it's an ongoing process and that's where like the supervision actually needs to kind of invite that too often it's like best practice compliance. So how can we make sure this is this and this and oh, this ah, stop and kind of just lean into it, design that space to what it needs to be. Yeah, it's great. Like someone has to be like mindful for me and have no input of their own in terms of like a conversation. Is someone there that is there for me and I chose them as well. Like that's my choice to keep showing up and I'm buying in to that and it's an investment on my future. So I like I'm such a big advocate for therapy which is sad because like it's such a negative association in society. Like there's something wrong with you if you go to therapy. And I originally felt like that for a really long time that's why I was resistant. But once I kind of was like okay, this might actually be helpful, let's give it a crack. I was like oh I really enjoy this but it had to be on my own terms and when I was ready to kind of unpack that. When you have like a system intervention that requires you to see a certain person, it's not authentic. So I guess it's about how to work within scope and I do think for practitioners is telling them what you can do and how you can help give them the parameters can actually help a lot because then they can see what work can be done and then through that then the co design work can begin.
But self awareness is kind of key.
[00:23:12] Speaker D: I think I go back to that question I mentioned earlier of tell me the worst thing you've ever done. We're asking parents to do that and we're asking them to trust that with our authority and without knowing us that they are safety share that with us. And I think we actually have to to be a reflective practitioner I think we need to actually understand that. So parents will sometimes flinch or defend themselves when we put information to them. We can try to do this in the safest way possible but we have to remember that systems have consistently let them down. So we can't. We've got to be reflective and understanding enough of our own compass of shame but parents compass of shame to know that this is just a defence mechanism. We cannot label parents as resistant or aggressive or My personal favourite is they lack insight because I think the truth is when we as practitioners slip into our own shame responses. And if we don't understand our own relationship with shame, we really risk recreating cycles of judgment and blame and exclusion.
But I also think it's really important to remember that as practitioners, our primary accountability is to the child.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: Amy described the importance of self awareness and reflection in practice.
[00:24:28] Speaker E: Self awareness and reflection is absolutely vital to this work. When we're thinking about what we're doing, you yourself are the greatest change agent. You are the tool, you are the intervention, your relationship and the decisions that you are making. And so you can't only focus outside of yourself, you have to turn that reflection inwards because otherwise you're not being the best self that you can be and you're not offering the most that you can.
Also, we know that this work has an impact on us, and particularly when we're thinking about children, it can bring up a lot of our own unconscious internal templates of what is right, what is wrong, what family should look like, sometimes even some trauma or relational triggers that we didn't realize were there. And so again, it's, it's a type of role where you, you constantly have to be aware of not just what you know or what you do, but who you are being. And you can only do that through reflection of self and reflection through relationship with others, because that's the only time that you can actually bring that to the front to think about how you can use that to actually help others. But if you really step back and think about what is most significant in helping child, and if you answer the question that you're answering is you yourself, then of course you need to prioritise that space to actually turn inwards and nurture yourself and do that self reflection.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: That brings us to the end of episode two of Child Centred Practice in Child Protection. I'm Dr. Carmela Bastian and I want to sincerely thank our guests Dr. Amy Bromley, Arabella Stravolemos and Chloe Henderson for their insightful and thoughtful answers. It has been great to work with Emerging Minds on this double episode. If you would like to see more resources about practice in child protection or out of home care, please visit www.emergingminds.com.
thank you all and goodbye.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Visit our website
[email protected] au to access a range of resources to assist your practice.
Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. Led by Emerging Minds, the Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health, Disability and Ageing under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.
