Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I think it's important to humanize each other and to allow the other person to self identify and to bring their whole being and their whole self in all engagements and in all of their interactions.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Hi everyone, my name is Rosie Schellen and today I'm joining you from the lands of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. I would like to acknowledge the deep respect I have for the custodians of this country and the deep wisdom and care that is held one of interconnectedness, supporting country, kinship, community and children. Today I am honoured to share a conversation with two of my wise colleagues, Julie Nagwabi and Nancy Jeffrey. In this episode, we will explore the power of language and the impact this has on diverse cultures, with a particular focus on the term global majority. Both Julie and Nancy will share their ideas about courage and curiosity, practising cultural humility, and being open to understanding the lived and living experience of others. So welcome, Nancy and Julie. It's really lovely to have you both here today for a conversation. Can we start first, Nancy, by telling me a little bit about yourself?
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Thanks, Rosie. It's great to be here today. My name's Nancy Jeffrey. I am a very proud woonga woman from the Northern Territory. We have only just found that out after 35 years of searching for our roots, where we come from, where we can connect to.
Although I've always connected to Darwin itself, being born there, I come from a really big family of twelve siblings. I often refer to us as a zebra family because half of us are really dark coloured skin and half of us are very light skinned. Like myself. I have two children and five grandchildren.
[00:02:00] Speaker C: Thank you, Nancy. That was beautiful. Julie, tell me a little bit about yourself.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yes, happy to. Thanks, Rosie. And thanks, Nancy. So, my name is Julian Gwadi. I'm a mother of two boys. My oldest is 24. He was just turning four when we came to Australia from Zimbabwe. And I also have a six year old boy who was born here in Australia. So I identify as a person of the global majority. But by heritage and descent, I'm from southern Africa and personally I subscribe to the philosophy of Owondo, which is what we believe. It matters how we interact and treat each other as human being. You are, because I am, and together we are. So that's one of the philosophies, really, that shapes the way I engage with people, whether it's clients that I work with or families or professionals at work. I really subscribe to that philosophy because I think it's important that we humanize each other, and I think it's a foundation for everything else.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: So recently, we've had a bit of a conversation about the terminology around culturally and linguistically diverse. And there's not one way of doing or speaking about culture in a way. And, Julie, you spoke to us about the term global majority, which was really impactful for us, and we thought it'd be really lovely to have this conversation with you today about global majority. And what does that mean to you? How did that come about, basically? So did you want to tell me a little bit about what global majority means to you?
[00:03:48] Speaker A: As we are aware, Australia, it's a multicultural country. We've got rich diversity and people from different ethnic backgrounds and different cultural backgrounds. And within that, people identify themselves differently in a way that is meaningful to them, in a way that can be connected to the way that they interact or engage with their own culture, in a way that humanizes them. So, for me, basically, I never found any of the terms that I used to describe me as befitting or terms that I identify with, like culturally and linguistically diverse term. It's a term that is used in the public and community sectors to categorize people who are non white from different cultures and background. The reality is, people within that category, they've got their unique experiences. They are quite diverse. You know, there's intersectionality to their identities as well. So grouping them under one term, whether it's culturally and linguistically diverse, it doesn't honor their individuality. So for me, I always had a problem with that, because I think it's important to humanize each other and to allow the other person to self identify and to bring their whole being and their whole self in all engagements and in all of their interactions. The reality is, yes, people do face discrimination. People do face marginalization. There are power imbalances in the society, there are power imbalances in the system, but that shouldn't be imposed or identified with who they identify with. So, in doing research, I came across the term global majority, which is an emerging term in America and in the UK. Basically, it refers to everyone else who is nine, white. So I found the term global majority was saying to me that I may be in a society where I am seen as a minority, as an other, but the fact is, globally, we are part of the global majority. So I found that term really empowering, and I found this is a term that I can easily embrace for myself and for my family as well.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: That's a beautiful description. Nancy, did you want to talk to me, a little bit about when you heard the term and what it meant for you.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Julie. That was amazing. So we were just coloured kids growing up in a very diverse Darwin town. And so, you know, when they started segregating us into aboriginal and to, you know, all these other different groups of people. And when you look at the word aboriginal, that too puts us all in one basket. Instead of saying, I'm a woo wonga woman, which I can proudly say today, because we did our research and we found what happened to our people and how we are who we are today. And, yeah, it excited me for my brothers and sisters because I saw their pain. For me. I could walk into two worlds, not a problem, because I could walk into a room full of white people and they'd accept me as a white person, but I'd walk into a room of our mob and they'd accept me as our mob, you know, one of us, one of the many, many nations of aboriginal people across this country and this nation. So for me, it was really exciting for my brothers and sisters to. It took away that pain, victimizing the, you know, to segregate them into you're this and you're that. You're not her brother, you're not her sister because you're too white and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And it was really difficult growing up with that. And it took me a long time to understand what was really going on out there. And what it was, was, yeah, we were the minority and I didn't like that. And when I heard global majority, it was like, oh, wow, this is so exciting. Citing for my brothers and sisters, like Jules.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: So you spoke just then, Nancy, beautifully, about your brothers and sisters, about a camaraderie, I suppose, with those that are not white. Did you want to explain to our audience a little bit about. Although Australia has a really specific context for our aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families, but there's also a oneness about not being white. How is Julie's experience similar to yours but different?
[00:08:50] Speaker B: So, yeah, it is same same, but different.
Different because we're from this country and I guess, you know, to be segregated within a family group, not just as individuals, but as a family group, it was really disheartening growing up knowing that I would never be like my mother with the beautiful, beautiful dark skin and you, you know, and identifying as that's my mother. And it was a fight all the way through. So I can relate to Julie's, where Julie's coming from, with that minority feeling that we are, you know, second to the white minority and to the white people. Sorry.
You know, and my dad was. He was a white fella, but he had. He had so much knowledge that he wanted to be part of this country, part of this land, part of us as aboriginal people, which really. I didn't. I didn't. I just. I really struggled understanding where we fit in this world until we found out our roots and where we were from. And that. That just made me feel so much more, I guess, empowered to be and identify and stand up strongly and say, yeah, I'm a strong woman and I'm also a global majority, which is fantastic.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: You described that really beautifully. Thank you. Julie, do you want to talk to me a little bit about language and why it's important to really be thinking about language when we're talking about diversity and especially, and identity and self?
[00:10:34] Speaker A: I think it's really important, Rosie and Nancy, because language is powerful. Language is influential. We use language every day to communicate with each other, to engage with each other, to interact with each other. Even within the systems, whether it's health or social services or community services, language is integral to that human to human interaction. And especially in a multicultural country like Australia, we should be interested in reviewing and examining the language that we are using when we are connecting with people from diverse cultures, because we want people to feel included. We want to feel people to feel like they are themselves. They can bring their whole self. We want to feel people, to make people feel like they got a voice, they belong. And when it comes to identity, people should have a right to self identify. I think we should all ascribe to the basic human rights, really, of freedom, of justice, of respect.
[00:11:50] Speaker C: Beautiful. Nancy, following on from that, what is the power of language for children and families?
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Ok. Children and families. It's really, really important because, you know, it sets their. It sets their future up. As I said, as a young person growing up in a small place like Darwin, there was no segregation other than you're a colored kid or you're a white kid or you're a Chinese or, you know. But we never, ever looked at each other differently until we went to another state.
It was so horrible. It was a challenge to get out of bed every day to go to school. It was a challenge to do sports because, you know, I had my brother who was in the same school, who was a lot darker than me, and so we fought every day against people just identifying as brother and sister.
That really put a really big chip on my shoulder for many, many years. And as a matter of fact, it was actually a white woman who actually took that chip off my shoulder and told me, you are important as a person and as an individual, not because they identify you as this or whatever it was, because she made me feel like I was somebody and I didn't feel different to anyone else around. It just, yeah, it was a really. It was a challenge. And for my children, an even more challenge because they're so fair. They got blue eyes, you know, and they struggle. They struggle sometimes to say, yeah, I'm aboriginal, because they are frightened of the reaction they're gonna get from everybody else around the table.
So it gives them identity and it gives them the self worth, like Julie was saying, you know, Julie, how would.
[00:13:45] Speaker C: You talk about language in the construction of, say, global majority? How would you talk to your children about that? How would you have a conversation about the terms of categorisation with your children?
[00:14:01] Speaker A: I think it's important for families, for parents to normalize having this conversation, and I think these are conversations that should start at home. I always think about there's a parenting program, circle of security, which talks about the parent being the safe and secure, bigger hands. So if we are laying that foundation at home, of safety, of security, of having these conversations about culture, of race, and really telling our children who they are, their identity, I think that becomes a protective factor. I think it really. It sets them up for life. It becomes a good foundation so that when they go out there, because they will go out there and sometimes out there is not always necessarily safe. If they've got a black or brown skin, but because they would have had. They would have been affirmed who they are at home, they would have been told about their identity. It means the impact is going to be a less negative. It means they are able to respond when someone is saying maybe a derogatory term or when someone is othering them, because they've already been told at home who they are, they know that to be the truth. They've accepted that. So whatever is going to be said out there is not going to impact them as much. And they are able. We should be equipping them as well.
[00:15:38] Speaker C: I think that's a really, really important message, because a lot of the time we're preparing our children for the negative aspects of going into society. What would that mean for identity, for children to be actually going well, this is something really positive. This is something really proud.
I'm actually part of the majority instead of being the minority, instead of arming them with strategies on how to climb over systems and climb over. So how does being thoughtful about terminology that we use support children's social and emotional wellbeing?
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Nancy, I'll go back to my grandchildren. You know, like, I took them for the first time to their first NAIDOC march, and I have never seen children glow and really proud to be part of. We felt like there was more of us than them. Does that make sense? Because they're very fair skinned, too.
And for them to know that their identity is an aboriginal Scotsman, you know, all of these beautiful cultures together and still can connect to our culture and our people is just amazing. And for them to stand up in school and say, hama Haberichino is a really proud moment for me and for them, you know, this is fantastic. Stand up and be you. Don't let anybody else put you in any basket. You go where you want to be and where you want to identify as.
And the more I hear this global majority, the more I'm wanting to talk to them about that, too, now. So, you know, so they've got a choice of how they want their language to be spoken and how they want to, you know, present themselves. Even though we didn't get raised in the depth of culture and language because it was all lost, it's still instilled in us. We still connect to the country. We still know where our home is, because as soon as we get there, we feel it. And so it's really important for the social, emotional wellbeing and in aboriginal communities. That's what it's about. It's about everybody coming together and embracing that child. For them to be brought up strong in their identity and to really stand up proud and go, yeah, I am who I am.
[00:18:11] Speaker C: And Julie following on from that, how can unthoughtful terms and terminology negatively impact on wellbeing?
[00:18:21] Speaker A: I think we have to. When we are talking about children's social and emotional well being and indeed their mental health, we have to think about the whole child. What makes the whole child? What are those domains that supports positive child mental health and well being? We have to think within the cultural lens, the importance of relationships, whether it's parent child relationships, relationships within the family, relationship with the next of kin. You know, that culturally, like in my culture, those relations. Who is family in my culture is very important. There is a network, you know, within who comprises the family. And each family member plays an important role in my children's upbringing, growth and developments. We know the importance of routines. Different cultures have got unique and different routines that children can tap into and all those things feed into who they are. They add value to who they are, their identity. It brings meaning to themselves and the importance of those connections. As we are talking about even connection to culture, connection to tradition, we shall be bringing all those things.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: You said that beautifully.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you so much.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: I really love listening to you both. I feel like I'm, like, privy to this amazing knowledge and wisdom. How can parents support the use of empowering language with their culture?
[00:20:01] Speaker A: I think parents, as I mentioned before, they have to be both intentional and also normalize the use of a language. And I think it's important to be quite clear from the get go not only affirming who they are, but also giving them coping strategies. Like, if any label is assigned to them, which does, which disempowers them or which shows disrespect or excludes them, for them to be able to come back and really connect who they really and truly are, I think it's an ongoing responsibility for parents and for families as well, to continue continuously have this conversation, continuously affirm children's identity, continuously put in them or instill in them that they are persons and human beings first, before any other label. They are human beings. They are people before any label that can be put on them.
[00:21:09] Speaker C: So it's about control, isn't it, for that person. It's not about being called a global majority or calm. It's whatever that person really wants, isn't it? What advice would you give to parents to have the permission to be able to have that conversation with somebody who may be white?
[00:21:28] Speaker A: I think these are conversations that we should all have with grace and humility as a foundation of having them to begin with. And I know that most, if not all, organizations or services, they've got policies that talk about culture being culturally responsive, that talks about cultural safety, that talks about person centered care or family focused care. So just reminding them that you actually have policies or you aspire to be person centered to honor people's cultures, to be culturally responsive to design services that are, you know, culturally safe. And one way you can actually apply that in practice is giving me the right to self identify who I want to be referred as. I think this is one of the most basic and foundational requests, if you can get identifying me right, it means we are starting off on a really good foundation. It's going to affect the division of power between us because we know that sometimes there's power imbalance in engagements in these relationships that needs to be addressed.
[00:22:53] Speaker C: Lovely. Nancy, did you want to follow on from that around. If you were giving advice to a practitioner, what advice would you give to that practitioner that they need to keep in mind in having these conversations about the agency, of the people that we work with, to have language that is important for them?
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Look, I think it's really important that they don't assume one of the experiences in my life is, you know, you go and I'll give an example of going to a doctor in a public system, and they assume that it's okay for a male doctor to examine me, and it's not okay with me. It's not okay with me because that's how I was raised by my mother and father is just, you know, it's just one of those things.
So if you don't know, you don't know. But you gotta ask, you gotta know. You gotta. You can't assume that, oh, Nancy's just. Look at her. She's just a white girl, you know, coming in here for a service. No. Did you actually read my file? Did you actually read my identity? Did you actually ask me who I identify as? And so it's really important to have that right at the beginning. Like Julie said, you know, let's be able to be ourselves and be out there and open about it and not have people assume that I am not an aboriginal woman or I am, you know, european or whatever. So assumptions is one thing, and to leave their bias culturally, their cultural bias outside the door when they are dealing with anybody and everybody of any human race.
[00:24:35] Speaker C: Julie, following on from what Nancy just spoke about around cultural bias and keeping that in mind, this kind of flips that though the term global majority flips cultural bias a little bit, doesn't it? When you think about the bias being. Cultural bias being. It comes with power and the power of the majority of the dominant, whereas the term global majority kind of flips that, doesn't it?
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's always going to be complex, it's always going to be challenging because people are unique. People bring their unique experiences, even with services people, they've got unique and different experiences in how they've engaged with systems of power before. So it's never going to be easy. It's not going to be a one size fits all, is just being mindful and being intentional, that we are not perpetuating that power imbalance, that we are bringing the other person in and allowing them that urgency and that self determination, really.
[00:25:47] Speaker C: And I suppose how we honour culture in our conversation.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: Why would aboriginals on Torres Strait Islander not be put in with cold?
[00:25:57] Speaker B: We have very different dialects, we have very different traditional ways across the country, you know, and to put us all in the one basket is just. It's not the right thing to do. Like I said, I'm a woonga woman and I can identify strongly as that now, but I also take up the identity of my scottish heritage as well, and really proud of that because of my father and my mother. And the influence of that to put us into the, you know, as cold is just not on. I'm sorry, but, you know, like. But then when you put us, as, in a global majority, like I said, it excites me because we're not considered the minority of Australia now, because we're quite often aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people, we're the minority in Australia. You know, the voice just showed us that.
[00:26:51] Speaker C: In your own country.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, in our own country, and which is really challenging for each and every one of us in a different way. And like Julie said, we're all we want to identify as ourselves for our own internal reasons.
Spiritually, emotionally. Everything that makes us who we are is actually there anyway already before we identify or know who we are. It's already inside us spiritually, whether we know it or not, that you're another human being.
It's not about your colour of your skin, it's about what you are and you identify as inside and outside.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: So I'm just gonna finish off with what would your advice be to parents to start the conversation? And Nancy, for you, will be what advice would you give to a practitioner to start the conversation?
[00:27:46] Speaker A: So my advice to families and parents is that you know yourselves better than anyone else. You know your children better than anyone else. You know your connection with your culture, your ways of being and doing things. You are the aspect of that. So be courageous and brave and know that it's your basic human right to be able to fully express who you are and to instill those values into your children, because it's really preparing them for the real world. And these are values that we all need to be instilling in our children for the betterment of the next generation of Australians.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: For practitioners, as I said before, don't assume, and don't be frightened to ask either. Yeah, just allow that person to be themselves, really. And to not even look at that person's outside, to actually try and be curious about the inside and the belief system and them, and then that relationship, that will set your relationship up from the beginning. And that's all it is. It's just. Don't just leave all your assumptions away. Don't look on the outside of the person. Get to feel and know the real person that's inside there and the human side of that person. Because we are all human.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: I just want to thank you, Julie and Nancy, for such a wise conversation. I feel like I've been honoured here, listening to the wisdom that's been in this room. I think the key messages for me coming out of this conversation is that there is no brighten or wrong term here. It's actually about connecting with the person that is in front of you and what they would actually identify with and what gives them value in language. So thank you very much. I really appreciate this conversation.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Thanks, Rosie.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: Thanks, Rosie. Thanks, Nancy.
[00:29:55] Speaker C: Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com dot au.
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[00:30:08] Speaker B: The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental.
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