Speaker 0 00:00:02 Welcome to the emerging minds podcast. This podcast is part of a series called listening to the stories of healing within the series. You will hear stories from community and the very diverse experiences of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, and how these narratives have shaped the amazing work that is happening in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities across Australia here at emerging minds, we like to call it the sacred garden, the stories and experiences that non Aboriginal people don't always get to see or hear whilst these stories include sadness and hurts and sometimes can feel uncomfortable to listen to it is through listening to these narratives that you will get a glimpse of the deep wisdom, knowledge and healing practices of families and communities, and understand why our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are part of the oldest continuing culture in the world.
Speaker 0 00:01:02 Welcome everyone. This is Donna Shen an Aboriginal cultural consultant working with emerging minds. Today, we are speaking with Aboriginal elder Millie, penny and Carol Michi from telethon kids. The <inaudible> project aims to bring Aboriginal elders and communities of Perth together with service providers and policy makers to develop culturally appropriate strategies, to improve outcomes for young Aboriginal children, zero to six years, and their families. The project focuses on identifying the foundations for raising strong and solid children. The values, priorities, and beliefs around child rearing. And the fact is considered critical to building healthy, confident, and resilient children. Welcome Carol and auntie Millie. Thank you for joining us. It is so lovely to speak with your boss today. And Emily, could you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself and what drives you? What are you really passionate about
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Life in general? Basically? Um, I love life. Um, so yeah, my name is Millie penny, I, um, senior, um, one Jap yoga. That's the senior woman woman either here. I'm an elder within my immediate family, but in the community I'm still regarded as a senior woman, but I'm also respected as an elder. If I say I'm an elder and I have that endorsement from my elders, my aunties, um, in particular, I work for 30 years, um, with women and children's issues. I started out in a, um, child placement, um, response agency. And then I went on to a mainstream placement agency, went back to studies for a few years, worked in women's refuge. A couple of times. Then I worked for family violence programs, um, managed for family violence programs. And for the last 12 years of my, with Aboriginal, um, counseling agency. And I worked in a child sexual abuse program and I stayed there for 12 years. So I left six years, seven years ago to take on full-time care for a granddaughter. Now I have two they're, six and nine. Don't regret that at all, love the job and still respect the previous clients that I've worked with. And they still come up to me today and say that I helped them through a difficult time.
Speaker 0 00:03:27 I bet you've really got your hands full with those little ones.
Speaker 1 00:03:30 Yeah. Yes and no. Cause six and nine you can manage. I also paint. So I've got, I'm starting to get the girls into painting. Very good actually. And I'm re connecting to my language. I speak fluently as a child, so it's not hard to reconnect as we have the, um, speakers of our language fluently in our family and I deed. Um, and I only I'm very selective. I still dance, traditional dance, dance, women's dance storytelling. That's me in a nutshell,
Speaker 0 00:04:04 Carol, did you want to tell me a bit about yourself now and what you're really passionate about?
Speaker 1 00:04:10 Yeah, so I, um, would like to pay my respects that I'm on, I'll watch a butcher. I'm not new things around a woman from Alice Springs, but I have been here for over 30 years. I've lived all over Australia within different Aboriginal missions. With that I am connected to my mum was a battler from Alice Springs. So connect to all the, all about Lamar, many of us that are, I know they're more about from Alice Springs. So my background is in early years education, I worked 27 years within the education, um, department. And, um, with some of our Aboriginal early years programs, um, the best start program in Australia and the indigenous parent factor. And I'm now on the telephone with, um, elders and community here in Perth. But my passion is I'm very passionate, very passionate about our families, children, communities, having a voice in how we live our life, which oftentimes we haven't had.
Speaker 1 00:05:19 So, um, whether that be an education or research or wherever, but, um, and for our kids to have the strength and to know who they are, where they come from, um, who they're connected to, and to be able to have a voice in this, in here in this country, that is ours. Um, but oftentimes we haven't been able to have that voice. So, and, and I'm very privileged to be working alongside, um, my elders here and I've always had elders oil through my life, wherever I am in Australia that have guided me. And, um, cause my own personal history has had sadness as suppose many of them are. So, um, I've been very fortunate to have people who have been an elders. Who've got me. Yeah. They're good about me.
Speaker 0 00:06:07 Just reflecting a little bit on what you said aren't many non Aboriginal people may not understand how you became an elder and how you become an odor. Do you want to talk to me a little bit about what that means and what that looks like?
Speaker 1 00:06:21 I think different areas have different protocols for speak on my area because that's where I'm an expertise in my area. Just because you turn 60, you know what an elder, an elder is endorsed by your community, by your elders and by a selection process. So I fit three of those criteria is number one. I am the oldest granddaughter within my immediate family and my mother was the oldest and my grandmother was the oldest. So in that generation of women on there, um, and also I'm endorsed by my oldest within the community. Um, it related a lot related and then in those, by my biological artists. So that's that process and it's earned and believe me, I was quite happy, um, looking at going down the country and risings and chokes, but that hasn't happened and painting that, you know, I was challenged as a senior woman to start stepping up, you have something to offer the community. You, you have information, the challenge, the challenge systems, challenge government, um, and why not do it? The trucks are still on the gym that, that not.
Speaker 0 00:07:36 So if you're a non Aboriginal person and you don't know those processes around becoming an elder, what advice would you give to them within their local community?
Speaker 1 00:07:47 I think it's very important to know that there are processes and there are protocols and it also comes down to respect. You need to earn respect from your other elders. I mean, you know, um, I'm not ashamed to say I'm in my mid sixties, but I have elders still alive in their seventies, in their mid well into their eighties and nineties. And those ladies are treasures and we need to sit at their feet and absorb the information because they are the trailblazers that walked before us and fought for us and allowed us to sit here and actually talk to you. Face-to-face on modern technology.
Speaker 0 00:08:26 Yes. Differently without them, without them things might be very different.
Speaker 1 00:08:31 Absolutely. Because remember on my mother's generation, my grandmother's generation, they didn't have the opportunity to sit at the table and to say, this is what we need. This is what we would like. And how about, um, us coming to some sort of agreement for the future of our children. And I mean, we did have people sitting at that table, but not to the extent that we need to now, as you know, as if there's nations people, we've got major problems with child protection, incarceration, you name it health. So we need to start being a voice and continue and continue and continue to be a voice until we are heard on what is the rights of our people and what are the needs of our people. And it's powerful sitting at the table with the Itel is that we have working with us within the <inaudible> project.
Speaker 1 00:09:24 You know, some of them are in their eighties, 84, but for them to, um, doesn't really matter what age, but for them to be able to sit at the table with that life history of being there right through the stolen generation, um, for them to sitting there telling that story from a, you can't, nobody's doing cross can deny the effect that it's had, but then to be sitting at the table as an elder with whether it be government heads or departments or CEOs from organizations, um, to say, well, we're coming here to you with solutions that we know that can work. So it's really powerful to have that with the elders sitting there, right there advertisable, which they've been sitting at the table for most of their lives. I think it's, um, really, really important to listen to and take on board, um, lived experience versus theory in a classroom because live, the experience is real and you can see, you can hear and you can feel the impact of that lived experience, which outweighs numerous times the theory of classroom teaching.
Speaker 0 00:10:34 So maybe it's time to just step back and go, well, you tell me what works for your community.
Speaker 1 00:10:40 I think that can work, but it has to be, um, Aboriginal driven come to the community, not go to a boardroom and bring it to the community, come to the community, take it to the boardroom, and then let's do this together. Yes. In was that I'm much more grounded within, and that's the, that's the other, um, great value of having the Elizabeth because I live in the community, there's two live older generations of whatever the community is experiencing at that time. Yeah. The beauty of being part of the, um, telephone Institute program is that it actually gives us a platform to voice our opinions and our opinions and our recommendations are respected here. So the research and the findings for me, what, what attracted me is that it's an international platform and they're weak. Therefore we can get our concerns, our recommendations implemented and taken to a wider audience globally. Basically.
Speaker 0 00:11:44 That's amazing, which brings me on to the next question, Carol. I'm not even going to try to pronounce this, but could you tell a little bit more about the project?
Speaker 1 00:11:55 It began in 2016, um, and as a five year research project working together with the Aboriginal community within Perth, which is new, but obviously they're not only just new people who Aboriginal people will live in Perth. We have from all over and Torres Strait Islander families as well. And it has been come right from the start. It has been elder and community driven and led. So it was taken, um, originally to a large meeting with the elders and, um, 54 elders tender for and out of that elders, um, nominated to work within the project and were endorsed by who was there as well. So we had, um, nine elders who were, uh, who were appointed. Fortunately one of our elders has passed on. So we, there are eight elders still working on the project and it was split up into four, the north, south, east, west regions of the water area.
Speaker 1 00:12:57 And each of the elders represented those areas. So they were basically in groups of two, one group was square for three, I was nine. Then the elders went to the community and basically, um, said, where do you want us to advocate on your behalf of your family, for your children? We call on this. Um, so it was this from zero to five, but as you know, anything with our model, it's all encompassing family community. Um, so yes, while it is, uh, early childhood research projects. So out of that three priority areas were established so that the community want us to, or the oldest to engage with, um, and to advocate on their behalf. So child protection, early years, education and housing and homelessness, uh, I think the beauty of the research is that the elders have stayed focused. Haven't been distracted, the importance of achieving or, um, highlighting, um, the needs of our community.
Speaker 1 00:13:59 We came in as low in strangers and were very tight elder group with that same focus. And, um, we're starting to get to know, um, state and federal politicians wanting names, getting to know them personally. So that's a massive impact to have, you know, you can work your whole life and not meet a politician that we sit at at the table with politicians and they are keen to learn and keen to listen cause, um, everyone needs strategies and especially cultural strategies and cultural protocols. What is very, very important is that we are answerable to the, to the elders in the, in the wider community. So we have one or two meetings. Yeah. We have labs. We report back to the large lab, the elders, which we have about, um, over 130 that are on that. So yes, it's very, very, very curiosity driven and accountable to, and while it's a research project, it is quite different than a lot of research. We wanted changes. We just didn't want to be written up as papers or we actually, and that's came from the community as well. We should get, these are the, these are the areas that we want you to work for. So we wanted to see changes. We want to be able to see that that has been the driving force behind, um, anything that we do and the elders do.
Speaker 0 00:15:24 I know it's a little bit early to say, but I wondered if you could share some of the key outcomes that you've seen as a result of this process.
Speaker 1 00:15:32 So one of the things is we, that has also been as that we work and support our Aboriginal organizations that are working within these fields as well. So, um, we have, we work with <inaudible>, which is a Aboriginal housing. Um, and we have the elders who have advocated also on behalf of the, for Aboriginal organizations, with housing organizations within WWI, at a federal level and state level to have, um, changes there. And we're also starting up a, an offshoot from this an Aboriginal early years, um, education program for the next three years, that is going to be totally run by Aboriginal teach Aboriginal EA Aboriginal project officer within the community that it's in. And, um, it will be a Aboriginal led run organized early years education. So we're pretty excited about that one. And we're also working with, um, a number of different organizations within the child protection. And, um, I really speak to that as well. We've set with ministers wanting change and giving recommendations. And why is there, I, um, hope proportion of Aboriginal children in care, why not put money into the families to support and to stop children from Ghana we recognize. And, um, there is a need for care, but they're all there. There's also has to be a reunification within the family. Otherwise you just it's submissions all over again, losing your language, losing your identity, losing cultural practices, the protocols, and losing the kinship and your identity. So it's very,
Speaker 0 00:17:23 What's it meant for you to actually say the last 30, 40 years and to now actually sit at the table and have that voice.
Speaker 1 00:17:29 Nope, I'm not part of the stolen generation, but I did marry a person who was there, was taken at the age of three. And I can't tell the story because it's not my story, but I can say that I grew up in a family where we were poor, but w w we stayed together. We connected, um, we're very, very close. We have our language, we have our traditions and I'm talking about, we have our soft lines, we have our dance lines and we have our cultural foods and my husband, um, has lost all that. So he's regaining or has regained language and cultural practices. And, um, it's just unfortunate that that takes away a person's identity really, really takes away, especially a child because at the age of three, one would think you'd be a part of a big family. And, um, that's your formative years, zero to six. So if you've lost the grounding of who you are and who laggy,
Speaker 0 00:18:35 Have you seen a change in how governments value Aboriginal elders voice? Now,
Speaker 1 00:18:39 I believe so. You know, a step in the door is better than the door still being slam shut. Yes. So we're optimistic might not take our generation, but our generation has a voice. The next generation will stand up and have a stronger voice. And then the next generation hopefully will have an even stronger voice. So that changes are made.
Speaker 0 00:18:59 So not only are you showing that for your granny's, but you're also modeling that for the community as well.
Speaker 1 00:19:06 It has to be community focused and share that knowledge, sharing your language. We don't, I met language that's ancient language that was there before we were born before our parents were born, share it, hand it on and start reclaiming who you are, languages is part of your identity, and we don't own it, leave it all behind you. Can't, you know, you take it to the grave and it's useless, leave it all beyond and let the next generation grow with it.
Speaker 0 00:19:32 Okay. What's it meant for you personally, to actually be able to honor the voice of elders in this. It's just
Speaker 1 00:19:39 Such a privilege to be able to work with elders and sit and listen and hear their expertise and be able to be a small part. And I think some of those doors so that I can sit at the table, I can't really put the words to the, how much, um, that has meant to me. And I guess one of the, um, indicators of that also in with the elders is, so when you come into the end of it, it's very rarely that you get a five years within any project or any program. So that was, that was privileged. And that getting that signed to the LG and I we're coming to the end of our five years, but we have an opportunity to continue this for another year. And we've also got three other projects coming out of, it will be another three years, and this is how we wanted to keep going.
Speaker 1 00:20:27 But obviously also realizing that the elders only signed up for five years. I'm sure there's other things that they would well in the modular world. You know, you're trying to go and do what you want to do, but I will, uh, we live and breathe that every day of our life. And from the day one of five years ago, to now asking the elders, do you want to still be a part of this? They are just as passionate, committed, five years down the track, which is five years in their life, you know, 84, 85, and still wanting to sit at the table and be part of this. I want to be engaged with seen change for our community and families and children. And, you know, it's the paper guy and go, oh, I'm already part of this. And so that the elders have said, no work did, y'all want to come back and sit at the table, were willing to sit through and work through this, which we have for those who've wanted to do that.
Speaker 1 00:21:20 And that's, that's pretty exciting. And then to say, apartment of people on boards that are there to make, have a voice for all of us and like change. So, yeah. Um, and at the end of the day, we want to say systems changed systems. I've got to change. And I guess it's the other powerful thing for me is just being, I go to know in some way that we can still wait, we can do this as community at times without all of the system that says, you know, you have the permission to this. You have the vision commission that our kids are growing up. Um, a lot of them growing up strong, they know who they are. They know who their families are. They know where they're from, they're learning their language. They know which country they're standing on. They're getting educated in both worlds and they're coming out with a voice and they they've got the backing of their elders.
Speaker 1 00:22:13 And also being able to work alongside the elders, which has been exciting as well. It is, it is. And I think <inaudible>, um, you know, there's a lot of politicians that are pro Aboriginal and, um, want to listen and want to do something and want to change, even if it's a tiny little pig in the big Irma, because the light is right. And so they're coming and knocking on the wrong guy. We didn't want that. We're saying well on the eldest son. Yep. If you want help, what kind of help you want? Because we've, we've sat at the table as well. When you've said that you kind of come in with preconceived ideas. And so if you really want help and to work together and work together, it does mean there's going to be some hard conversations. Yes. And the beauty of this is that, um, we're not taking this. We are genuinely genuinely concerned with our community and we need to be because you have to stand up, the next generation could fall. And so we need to continue with that pushing. What changes
Speaker 0 00:23:16 Do you want to tell me a little bit about what it looks like for children to grow and be strong and healthy and thriving in culture? Look,
Speaker 1 00:23:24 Children need, um, aside time and education and they need to know who they are. So we need to, I mean, I do it, I do it with my grandchildren, what I can Bush as women piped up with ARCA and, um, we'll dance on land and the kids who the little ones are watching and they know who they are. We don't want to get caught up with being ashamed of being Aboriginal, which could happen, which has happened. So we need to bring in the re-emergence of identity and be proud of who you are. Be proud that you're Aboriginal and know that you're Aboriginal speak your language. And our children have a right to early education can use mine. As an example, I have missed, she just turned six and she, um, excess daycare, kindie she's in preschool and she can read and write. And that is massive for our people.
Speaker 1 00:24:20 And this is a story to say why it is important to get your children off to daycare, get your children off to kindie, because if you just wipe the tools, great one, they will really be on night bull and it's hard to catch up and do teachers have the patience for our kids to catch up? It's another question. So it's important for us as a community also to start taking ownership and to stop thinking about our children's future, not the here and the now, but the children's future. One of the initial questions that we ask community within the research and the community was really big on that, on the good things, the strong things that they saw as wanting and acknowledging as I'm growing our kids strong and oftentimes any services or government agencies go into work with me, they always pick out the things that are, that aren't working.
Speaker 1 00:25:18 So let's focus on that. And the community here was like very strong and growing. We want these good, strong things to be acknowledged and just animal is already spoken. I acknowledged a lot of them. So, um, elders are important within the community. Um, having a community is important education, having a strong identity language connection to the country, culture, strong mothers and female role models in the same with him and others, and now role models during care for him, I'll trust, feeling safe and secure and loved our kids grant living in two worlds, knowing that they have to do that, where they fit with that, um, respecting enlargement of our Aboriginal ways and, um, culture and health and wellbeing. So the community was really strong on focusing on recognizing those strong things within and working on that. And how do we have programs that come out of those strong things to build out? So that's for our education, um, program that we're gonna early use education program. We're going to start, um, with families is built basically around all of that as our model.
Speaker 0 00:26:27 Could you please tell us your concerns or views regarding the increase of Aboriginal children in the child protection system
Speaker 1 00:26:34 Over a week? Um, the state's statistics on Aboriginal children that have been relieved. I think what I would like to see is let's have a look at the areas of proportion that children have been removed for. We have 14 nations of new math people in our region, how many children are taken from each of those regions, because remember that where, where minority now am country in our own community. So our numbers will always be higher because of that. So break it down and then we'll know exactly how many children are in care, where these children come from, what are these issues? And then work individually with, um, the departments or the pals to be, for example, I came into, you know, this is the state hospital for children. I came in the last week and I deliberately went up to, um, a couple of ladies with, um, three little children.
Speaker 1 00:27:33 I knew that wasn't their children. I just said, oh, excuse me, are they, um, you've gotta be bold sometimes. And the gray hair gives you that license. So I just said, excuse me, um, are they family, or are they, um, fostered? And she said that fostered and these children were from Warburton run out in the desert calculate region. And they're here based in, in Perth. So they were open to conversation and there's a connection national connection with Aboriginal people and the little one, the little three month old baby. And then let me in so many before only little life grabbed onto my hand and wouldn't let go, just held tightly. And the two in the primes where I could see the connection, the Aboriginal connection, you know, that spiritual connection. Um, they will, they're, they're away from their lens. And I'll just say, we just talk just a second and talk also from my, um, another elder and this morning I came in and, um, little things like this do make a difference.
Speaker 1 00:28:36 When Carol came down ticket to collect me from the reception, I was talking to an Aboriginal woman who was telling me her story, who, her family stories I was in there. So there's always that connection. So we need to break down those, um, high number. And I think we'll get little bits of little bits of little bits of little bits and it doesn't look so daunting. And then what I mean might be 20 from <inaudible> might be 20 from Yamagees might be 20 from, yeah. And then it's not so big. Yeah. So that's why every time it's taken out of community, if you actually yet believe it with, and community is a part of making that restoration and healing and making it work in ways that work within family and culturally. But that's not to say that sometimes yes, our children do need to be removed from situations, but there always has to be connection over how do we heal it as a community?
Speaker 1 00:29:33 How do we make this better? And yes, when you do break it down, um, within communities and families, it is much more doable. It's not this big, scary number. It doesn't have to be that big. And that's where Aboriginal organizations need to be able to be supported and resourced, to be able to do that wherever in Australia, that is, and that where more has to be put into being able to do that. And now our elders and our young people who are coming up and now workers who've worked within these fields under different systems have got the knowledge and the expertise, and also seeing how it doesn't work. Because I do work live in the two worlds of being able to be resourced, to make it happen within community. It's gotta be a plastic advantage for us, how to do it, but yeah, it doesn't have to be always put into this big, scary number of we can't do this and everyone, Ooh. Cause we can't do it.
Speaker 0 00:30:34 I really appreciate your wisdom. I could sit here all day listening to you. So we're about to finish off soon, but I wondered art that you want to tell me what your hopes are for the children within your community.
Speaker 1 00:30:46 I think that, um, we really, really, really need to reinforce identity and pride that say, you know, yeah. You know, <inaudible>, you know, not all the <inaudible> and language comes languages free. Give it out, sit down and teach on talking to Ms. Sam. She'll be two next month. It's talking aloud to her yesterday. And, um, that's all we can do and keep challenging the system, keep just challenging. And um, younger ones coming up are looking, listening, and watching and learning and I can pick it up. And they generally, this, this next generation is going to be, um, more educated to challenge the system. So that'll keep continue to grow. And I'm very proud that we have Aboriginal representation in state and federal parliament because, um, I, my philosophy is I don't care who they are, but for them because they are Aboriginal Los Vietnam, but bet you've got a representative day.
Speaker 1 00:31:49 Um, my hope is that they grow up and then next generation and that within Australia in a, in a country that acknowledges who they are, the country they're on what they have to offer. And in all of it, language, um, knowledge of country, of spirituality, of the arts story and community, and just all the strengths that, that, that offers and that they grew up in a country that acknowledges that, that holds that and seeks them out for wanting that to be a part of them. And to know that that whole history of, of the 50, 60,000 years of being here, it's got so many to offer and I have so many to offer within that and for that to be recognized and just celebrate it and enjoy it and being able to live together with that, with that being part of who they are. And I, and I have some, I have a strength in that and then to, um, defend the Archer, speak that, and they are to bring their families and kids, children up with in a, in a country that it is good for them.
Speaker 1 00:33:01 And we do, we have lots to offer. Our kids have lots to offer. I have bright, uh, full of life. I want, I want them to be able to feel that they, they fit in with them. They don't have to hide. I don't have to be a part of systems that don't feel on those strengths and all this is conclude by saying that my, um, philosophy and sayings in the community lately is that has been for the last couple of years, is they can't deport us, cannot deport us anywhere in the world. This is our land. This is our budget. This is, this is our home. You always was always will be. Um, because, uh, just at our go, um, which we've been involved in through public school and the end of our straight for the last 23 years, you know, and now we've always been the minority there, but our 20 Aboriginal kids out of the 300 and running the night of the semi and standing not best time to everybody, this is my family. They kind of point out in language where they're from, who they are and stand there tall and proud and gum. Yep. This is it. That's good. And that's empowering. Yeah. Next generation.
Speaker 0 00:34:15 Definitely. Without them, we wouldn't be here. It could have been a lot different for many of us. Thank you for joining us in our podcast series, listening to stories of healing, visit our
[email protected]. Do they, you to access a range of resources to assist your practice brought to you by the national workforce center for child mental health led by emerging lines, the national workforce center for child mental health is funded by the Australian government department of health, under the national support for child and youth mental health program. <inaudible>.
